What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

As it turns out, for better or worse, most people like characters who are affectionate to your WoL. This was almost certainly a factor for Emet, too - and it was a factor in why selling Venat to the audience took the route that it did. It is what it is. We're the minority. It's okay.

Am I the only anti-Venat person who likes G'raha? D:

Is it not just human nature? Even in real life I'm going to be fond of people who treat me warmly. Why would I not love a character who refers to me as their "new old friend" or another who went behind the Convocation's back to create a memory crystal for my original incarnation that he carried with him for millennia? Conversely, despite Venat's fascination with the WoL in Elpis, I think people too easily forget that she deliberately inflicted harm upon Azem and under no circumstances will I ever believe Azem consented to being sundered.

I can understand being put off by the hero worship, like I said it makes you wonder if G'raha would like us if we weren't the WoL (although someone mentioned he liked us during the CT raids when he was unaware of our exploits). Unfortunately, I'll never understand Haurchefant not only due to being subjected to the western revision but because his archetype isn't one we're used to in the west that I've heard is popular in Japan.

[Lauront]

If nothing else, it's hilarious to me that Venat was written to be directly and indirectly responsible for pretty much every bad thing that ever happened in the story but the game just expects everybody to ignore that and instead blame the victims of various and entirely avoidable atrocities. It's a lot how when people are at their lowest point the last thing they typically want to hear is to be told to just get over it.

There's such a tonal whiplash with the way in which Garlemald is handled. I brought it up already, but I was dreading smug commentary from the Scions about how they had it coming. Instead, they were treated with dignity and respect. Which just makes it all the more jarring that the same mentality wasn't afforded to the Ancients. Even if we concede that the timeline could not be changed for fear of erasing the Sundered...there's really no reason for at least one or two of the Scions to be disgusted and have a crisis of faith.

Much in the same way as how FFX was made all the more interesting by Wakka's crisis of faith, whilst FFIX had Steiner's conflicting loyalty to Queen Brahne and FFVI had Celes accused of still remaining loyal to the Empire despite her defection.

Such setups allow for excellent drama and dynamics between characters. FFXIV has very little of that. The Scions all agree with each other on pretty much every subject.

It did feel like at least Y'shtola was veering in that direction (the twins' empathy with Emet-Selch was more visceral but did not seem to trigger the same scepticism that Y'shtola was evincing by 5.5), but then if anything in EW she was the one who just tossed aside her earlier scepticism to Venat.

I both like and dislike Venat. I thought she was a very cool and interesting character, and I loved her charisma.

But I dislike her pseudo-Buddhist "suffering fetishism". The entire Endwalker story, for example, struck me as a constant example of "Perfection Fallacy". We're flat out told that since no civilization can achieve perfection, then they should stop striving for it. The Ea became depressed about the fact that, despite eliminating every other problem on their star, they couldn't do anything about the heat death of the universe, which led to their inevitable demise.

The premise feels laughably juvenile. Real-life academics and skeptics have long accepted the relative meaninglessness and finite measure of life for centuries, and most of them haven't shriveled into a ball of nihilism. Yes, you can't live life without some measure of suffering, but not all suffering is equal, not all suffering has the same consequences, and not all suffering is necessary. My entire problem with Endwalker's plot (and thus Venat's characterization) is that they act like it is.

Agreed, and I think it's all the more ridiculous, because the Scions still aspire to perfectionist ideals, i.e. to minimise suffering, which means that fate will eventually be a potential issue again. I don't fault them for that, but you can't then try hold to that whilst simultaneously justifying, in the story, sundering the world to avoid the Plenty. In fact, some of the impulses of the sundered open up the other worlds shown as possibilities. That is my issue with it. Had they pushed the sundering as the result of a tragic misunderstanding, but which would now come at a very gruesome cost to reverse, at least using Ascian methods (and really, from a practical perspective, requiring something like 1.0->2.0 to pull off beyond that)? I'd accept that. I also think it's a little silly for other reasons - plenty of humans are content to live their lives focused mostly on entirely hedonistic pursuits, yet the way the story is written, we should be heading to a dead end ourselves as we eclipse sources of suffering and are able to focus more on leisure. I remain committed to the idea of doing so, particularly with ills like ageing, and I found the story to be rather juvenile, as you say, in how forced a caricature the Plenty seemed to be... could these individuals not invent ways to keep their minds occupied? Even so, the setting has a star-centric system of reincarnation, so it's not like life on their star wouldn't one day rekindle (Meteion aside.)

[PawPaw]

Am I the only anti-Venat person who likes G'raha? D:

Nope! I love G'raha. I still hold that I'd push every Scion into the Void if I could pal around with Hyth and Emet for good instead but as Scions go, he's one of the ones I like.

[Brinne]

Am I the only anti-Venat person who likes G'raha? D:

Oh, G'raha is fine. I don't mind him, but I wouldn't consider him one of my favorites, is all. But we are also definitely in the minority when it comes to Venat - in those 2ch polls where G'raha did well, Venat was also #3 and #2, in sequence. Alas. At least the best of best friends, Zenos, moved up several places between the two polls!

As far as the WoL goes, I actually generally really love the feeling of collaboration between the game's writing and my input to create a personal character for myself. I like the capacity for my WoL to surprise me in how they react, and feel like they have some degree of agency that gets my imagination running. Of course, I totally understand dissonance - I rolled my eyes at my WoL playing nice with Merlwyb all the way back from ARR, and I probably don't need to elaborate further on Venat. I also didn't like Hien or Gaius, two other people that the WoL liked or learned to get along with. Venat, though, is the only one that was sort of a game-breaker, of sorts, to me - the rest weren't a huge deal, or I could otherwise rationalize it. I don't feel the need to be on the exact same page with my opinions on events or characters as my WoL, necessarily, most of the time.

[Lauront]

I was somewhat surprised that poor Elidibus hasn't moved to the top fave characters yet in the polls - any of them, really. Maybe by the end of Pandaemonium he will. I'm glad Hyth and Emet-Selch at least get recognition. Regarding G'raha, I don't like him appearance-wise, and while he was tolerable as the Exarch, he isn't my choice of travelling companion, and I find the fanboyism offputting. I also don't like the writing pushing the idea that I, via my character, "owe" him this. I was hoping for a fresh cast going forwards, but if we're talking about NPCs I am amenable towards, it'd be Arenvald (although he'll need to trade in that wheelchair for a magitek one!), Estinien, Fordola, Hien, Magnai, Sadu, Riol, Jullus, maybe Gaius... even Gaia. I like Thancred, but he's due a retirement. Don't mind Y'shtola but same sentiment. No love for the twins, Tataru etc. I'd really have loved a sundered Overlord travelling companion, if I am honest, particularly with Zodiark and the unsundered now gone - especially if the Reflections are a destination, it'd be interesting to have one as a guide, with a revised agenda, since they were operating there.

All my top choices are gone now (Emet, Hyth, Elidibus, possibly Laha), but it is what it is.

[KizuyaKatogami]

If only Venat had the same line of thinking as our FF13 protagonists. I guess thats why i just cant take Endwalker seriously. It kind of goes against past ff themes.

[CrownySuccubus]

I also think it's a little silly for other reasons - plenty of humans are content to live their lives focused mostly on entirely hedonistic pursuits, yet the way the story is written, we should be heading to a dead end ourselves as we eclipse sources of suffering and are able to focus more on leisure. I remain committed to the idea of doing so, particularly with ills like ageing, and I found the story to be rather juvenile, as you say, in how forced a caricature the Plenty seemed to be... could these individuals not invent ways to keep their minds occupied? Even so, the setting has a star-centric system of reincarnation, so it's not like life on their star wouldn't one day rekindle (Meteion aside.)

Indeed. The game tries to treat a post-scarcity as its the worst thing ever. Like, if humankind isn't struggling for subsistence, then we're decadent. I think one of humankind's worst self-inflicted tragedies was convincing itself that leisure was not a basic human right.

We live in an age where work is glorified and sanctified above all else. I remember being in a conference recently where they demonstrated that most people who work in office shifts spend about 20% of their time pretending pretending to work or finding some other form of what the speakers called "meaningless work". Just work for work's sake, because otherwise they would be fired or their pay/jobs would be cut. They must "work" even if that work ultimately means nothing.

Leisure is a basic human need that gets a bum rap.

[Brinne]

Indeed. The game tries to treat a post-scarcity as its the worst thing ever. Like, if humankind isn't struggling for subsistence, then we're decadent. I think one of humankind's worst self-inflicted tragedies was convincing itself that leisure was not a basic human right.

We live in an age where work is glorified and sanctified above all else. I remember being in a conference recently where they demonstrated that most people who work in office shifts spend about 20% of their time pretending pretending to work or finding some other form of what the speakers called "meaningless work". Just work for work's sake, because otherwise they would be fired or their pay/jobs would be cut. They must "work" even if that work ultimately means nothing.

Leisure is a basic human need that gets a bum rap.

Personally, I'm pretty sure navigating human relationships and getting immersed in/arguing over one's hobbies (well, hello there, everyone! <_<), along with encouraging interest in things like debate and the arts, would be enough to keep someone's brain occupied and stimulated on a near-perpetual basis - without necessitating the extreme suffering like war, disease, poverty, inequality, what have you. If not, I'm one of those who honestly didn't see anything wrong with the Ancients' death ritual and actually found it really attractive.

[Lauront]

Yep. There's ways in which suffering is valuable, but it will always exist at a minimum in the sense that you'll never always get everything you want - e.g. you'll never have everyone agree with you all the time, you'll never always be able to please others, competing priorities etc. Putting up with more severe forms of it, of the sort you mention, is largely something you have to do in societies still grappling with scarcity, but even then, we gradually aim to reduce it, and (mostly) shift the need/urge for competitive stimulation to more controlled formats, e.g. sports, sparring, games etc. All pursuits we see with the ancients. As for the denizens of the Plenty? Let's just say it requires a rather colossal suspension of disbelief.

If not, I'm one of those who honestly didn't see anything wrong with the Ancients' death ritual and actually found it really attractive.

Yes, that part really captivated me - the way they understood it as returning to the star and forming part of its lifeblood. They really did see it as something sacred. I got the sense of that from the way the Convocation crystals referred to the star, as well as some of the other stuff like the logs in the Words of Mitron, and EW helped thread that all together. It makes a ton of sense given the soul cycle in the setting.

[Rulakir]

Nope! I love G'raha. I still hold that I'd push every Scion into the Void if I could pal around with Hyth and Emet for good instead but as Scions go, he's one of the ones I like.

Yay! I do feel somewhat guilty that I wouldn't miss Alisaie since she's one of the WoL's few true friends among the Scions. Since we're stuck with them, I hope they'll give her more time to shine to become more like a Sam to our Frodo (although G'raha could fill that role too). I liked that those two were the ones who ran up to the WoL during the body swap scene (and cried at the end when we 'died'), it just further illustrated who the closest ones to the WoL are.

I don't feel the need to be on the exact same page with my opinions on events or characters as my WoL, necessarily, most of the time.

Exempting Venat who, as you said, was a game-breaker, I've been consistently irritated with how closed-minded my character is. Can we at least hear someone out first (especially strangers!) before scowling and doing the 'come at me' stance? My character is constantly looking to start fights unprovoked. Conversely, how I'm made to act like I cared about Minfilia (my most hated character even over Venat). Fortunately, when it comes to my WoL liking people I dislike it's limited in some way or another whereas the former is a fairly consistent behavior I suspect isn't going to be coming to an end going into future storylines.

I was somewhat surprised that poor Elidibus hasn't moved to the top fave characters yet in the polls - any of them, really. Maybe by the end of Pandaemonium he will.

Poor Elidibus. He's certainly above most of the characters listed in those surveys for me. Also, Sadu is best girl.

I remember being in a conference recently where they demonstrated that most people who work in office shifts spend about 20% of their time pretending pretending to work or finding some other form of what the speakers called "meaningless work". Just work for work's sake, because otherwise they would be fired or their pay/jobs would be cut. They must "work" even if that work ultimately means nothing.

"Look busy" is common in an office setting, especially if any of the top brass are visiting. Everyone has to appear productive. Fortunately, forums are a good way to look like you're doing something. :P