Endwalker vs shadowbringers story, which did you enjoy more and why? (spoilers)

[aveyond-dreams]

Shadowbringers was a more enjoyable story experience than Endwalker was looking back.

Shadowbringers created a sense of urgency and tension that was persistent throughout most of our journey that was never broken up by ridiculous "slice of life" sequences and the Scions were comparatively more tolerable back then.

There is also the matter of Shadowbringers having actual antagonists with logical agendas while in Endwalker, it was decided that everyone had to be in a "grey area" and we wound up having to put up with Hermes and Meteion, along with Zenos. Seriously?

I am thankful that I was able to play Endwalker at the peak of the hype when everyone was largely positive about it, but if I were to do my first playthrough of it now I would find myself questioning what on earth went wrong when they were putting this story together.

[Lauront]

I think the difference here is the ancients have had to suffer far more than the scions ever have. Why is it always only the antagonists that have to undergo such pain and suffering? Always being faced with transforming into hideous monsters or watching their loved ones die etc. The main cast has been essentially immune to all of this for quite some time now. I think at this point it’s a matter of well, if they’re willing to go against their own themes and contradict them for the sake of keeping the scions alive, might as well do the same for the ancients too then, especially when one side of it is just due to community pandering.

That, plus even putting aside the ancients, I don't like most of the Scions - and even the ones I do like, such as Thancred, are rather spent in their contribution to the story. 10 years has not changed it. Estinien aside, 10 more years of them is something I dread. With a new chapter, I'd like a new cast, as at least there's the potential for characters I like better with new angles to them. Obviously there's the potential for the opposite too but I'll take that gamble right about now.

[MoofiaBossVal]

ShB 5.0 was a fun fantasy adventure story that didn't try to be too ambitious. It had modest goals and fulfilled them well.

Endwalker 6.0 had to wrap up a dozen different plot threads that had been built up for years. It discarded about half of them and botched the other half. It tries to handle stories about the ruination of civilization, the "despair" of a world ending apocalypse, and so on, but handled it quite poorly.

The ShB 5.0 cast is also more tolerable than the EW cast.

ShB 5.0 >>> EW 6.0

[ZJyn]

Shadowbringers without contest. Endwalker felt a little slipshod and rushed.

~The villain swap at the end just didn't work. Clearly, Ishikawa wrote Endwalker to hinge on Fandaniel/Hermes, a lot of the character development went to him, and he had a complete and relatable arc that would have been able to carry the story to its ending.

They instead decided to have the story's emotional climax fall on a character that barely got to develop at all. We needed more of her; more time/development, because without it, generic creepy girl becoming the final boss had the impact of a wet thud into mud.

IMO, this should have remained on Fandaniel's shoulders. I think Ishikawa did a great job of taking a character that was getting a lot of side-eye and making him feel pretty well fleshed out.

~Go back and play Amaurot again. In one 15 minute zone, they managed to capture the feeling of the Final Days better than the entire arc in Thavnair. Then it just disappeared from existence afterward for some reason. This was supposed to be *the* threat that we're trying to avert.

~I honestly felt a little robbed that they didn't stick the landing on killing off the scions. Either do it, or don't. Instead, they yanked on your heartstrings, brought me to tears, only to then say "NM everyone's fine lol". You don't play around with character death like that in writing. The person experiencing the story feels cheated. I walked away from that upset, but not for the reasons I think they wanted me to.

~Plenty of minor plotholes otherwise.

Contrast that to Shadowbringers:

~They managed to nail that feeling of desperation throughout the entire experience. That weight of the world's coming end was a miasma that followed you everywhere, and its return was something that made you feel emotional that you were causing it. When you bring the night, it gave me goose bumps every time, because you can feel like you're actually saving people from the horrors that were introduced in the beginning.

~Emet Selch was an amazing piece of character work. You were able to identify with him and his motives. You could sympathize with his cause. And he had a personality that was likable even though he was clearly working against you.

~The capstone at the end of the Tempest still is memorable to this day. Either they had something like that planned from the beginning, or they tied those threads together at the last second while making it seem like they did. Either way it's a masterstroke.

And that doesn't even include 5.1 to 5.3.

Being an author myself, it reminds me of when someone reaches out and asks me to change a story after it's written. There are even lines to suggest it, like when Y'shtola says "don't use the stone" in Ultima Thule. Instead we got a macguffin for the Final Days, and the more emotionally heartbreaking moments in the story were softened. It's a shame, because I think Endwalker had the bones of something amazing.

[Lyth]

...

You've missed the point.

Emet and Hyth aren't 'on another side'. We literally team up with them as party members this expansion. Even Zenos is more of an antagonist than they are this expansion. On one hand, you demand retcons to reverse events when the writing team kills off the characters that you do like. At the same time, you demand that the writing team kills off the characters you're either not invested in or actively dislike. That has nothing to do with 'raising the stakes'. It's actually the opposite.

There is no Horde vs. Alliance here. Warcraft writing team logic just doesn't apply.

[KizuyaKatogami]

You've missed the point.

Emet and Hyth aren't 'on another side'. We literally team up with them as party members this expansion. Even Zenos is more of an antagonist than they are this expansion. On one hand, you demand retcons to reverse events when the writing team kills off the characters that you do like. At the same time, you demand that the writing team kills off the characters you're either not invested in or actively dislike. That has nothing to do with 'raising the stakes'. It's actually the opposite.

There is no Horde vs. Alliance here. Warcraft writing team logic just doesn't apply.

The thing is some of the characters i’m asking for there to be consequences for i don’t particularly dislike so i’d rather you not try and assume . I love thancred and don’t really mind urianger, but i can still see there needs to be proper consequences for their actions. It’s not really reversing, it would be an alternate timeline. Reversing would be doing what they did in Ultima Thule and bringing back the scions into the current timeline. It does have to do with raising the stakes. You’re free to your opinion, but there are 0 stakes involved when we know the main cast is invincible and nothing will happen to them.

The ancients are indeed a part of another side, as our existence comes at the cost of their own, as we’ve known for awhile now. With the amount of plot holes they created to try and kill off the ancients, an alternate timeline would ironically make more sense than keeping things are they are would and keeping Endwalkers horribly disjointed plot would.

Also, again, and i know you’ve read my other posts so i’d really rather you stop trying to reach for things, it’s not even just death. It can be an injury, a wound, anything that would actually negatively affect them in some way. They literally are perfect sponges this entire expansion. A planet decimating apocalypse and the entirety of the main cast is perfectly fine without a scratch? Yeah no sorry, that’s pure plot armor plain and simple, and not good for the story whatsoever, especially when you look at how bloated the cast is and how little some characters have added to this expansion(what did Yshtola do of substance this entire expansion exactly?)Just as how you like to preach about cheap shock value deaths being detrimental to the story, let’s address how constant death baiting is just as bad hm? Oh of course you and no one else will bring that up though, as that would actually be bringing up actual flaws with the story.

[kpxmanifesto]

Emet and Hyth aren't 'on another side'. We literally team up with them as party members this expansion. Even Zenos is more of an antagonist than they are this expansion.

I wouldn't call them allies either. Sure you teamed up with them for some time, but the Ancients and the WoL still had very different goals.

At the same time, you demand that the writing team kills off the characters you're either not invested in or actively dislike. That has nothing to do with 'raising the stakes'. It's actually the opposite.

You believe that making characters vulnerable isn't raising the stakes? That's a very strange opinion.

[FoxyAreku]

I liked ShB as a story and due to it actually having gameplay past the quota 5 dungeons 3 trials.

[aveyond-dreams]

The thing is some of the characters i’m asking for there to be consequences for i don’t particularly dislike so i’d rather you not try and assume . I love thancred and don’t really mind urianger, but i can still see there needs to be proper consequences for their actions. It does have to do with raising the stakes. You’re free to your opinion, but there are 0 stakes involved when we know the main cast is invincible and nothing will happen to them.

It can be an injury, a wound, anything that would actually negatively affect them in some way. They literally are perfect sponges this entire expansion. A planet decimating apocalypse and the entirety of the main cast is perfectly fine without a scratch? Yeah no sorry, that’s pure plot armor plain and simple, and not good for the story whatsoever, especially when you look at how bloated the cast is and how little some characters have added to this expansion(what did Yshtola do of substance this entire expansion exactly?)

In previous FF games that featured apocalyptic-level events such as FFVI and FFXV, although the main party survives they do not come away completely unscathed-the cast of FFVI showed varying signs of trauma and were heavily emotionally impacted by the events of apocalypse and in FFXV the party is progressively more battered and wounded as the game goes on, in both cases growth and development was shown.

Contrast this to Endwalker, where...nothing happened. No good can come of allowing characters who have fulfilled their roles and finished their storylines to continue taking up space and screentime. The presence of characters like Y'shtola has become insufferable, characters like G'raha Tia who were more respected in their original roles have since become plushies and cannot be removed from the cast due to potential outrage from social media, and our tough guy Estinien is often told to hold back or tone down his personality to fit the ideological perspective of the good guy scions.

At present I cannot think of a less interesting party in the entire series with named party members than the scions. You cannot sell me 10 more years of this, I'm sorry.

[KizuyaKatogami]

In previous FF games that featured apocalyptic-level events such as FFVI and FFXV, although the main party survives they do not come away completely unscathed-the cast of FFVI showed varying signs of trauma and were heavily emotionally impacted by the events of apocalypse and in FFXV the party is progressively more battered and wounded as the game goes on, in both cases growth and development was shown.

Contrast this to Endwalker, where...nothing happened. No good can come of allowing characters who have fulfilled their roles and finished their storylines to continue taking up space and screentime. The presence of characters like Y'shtola has become insufferable, characters like G'raha Tia who were more respected in their original roles have since become plushies and cannot be removed from the cast due to potential outrage from social media, and our tough guy Estinien is often told to hold back or tone down his personality to fit the ideological perspective of the good guy scions.

At present I cannot think of a less interesting party in the entire series with named party members than the scions. You cannot sell me 10 more years of this, I'm sorry.

Precisely my point. The thing i love about 15 too as well, is for example with SPOILERS…


Ignis’ blindness. He isn’t just immediately accustomed to it. You watch him struggle doing simple things like walking. He’s a detriment in combat, he falls over, he misses his target constantly and he slows your group down and it adds so much more to the environment. You really feel that realistic struggle he has.


That is something that is missing so much from 14. There is no realistic struggle when it comes to the main cast. They triumph every time with no casualties, no consequences, really nothing to show that they suffered. I honestly would not have AS big of a problem with it, if they weren’t constantly trying to push the theme this expansion of suffering is necessary. If suffering is necessary…then why don’t the scions have to endure anything during the apocalypse? What kind of message is it if your main cast is not only immune to said themes, but also contradicts them. This is why ShB felt so much better imo. They weren’t trying to throw so much in your face of this is how you should be. You saw both sides of the struggle, and while the scions may not have had any deaths or lasting consequences(although they should have), you did see some of them struggling. Alisaie struggling to find a solution and having mental breakdowns, thancred struggling to see Ryne as her own person and to let go of minfilia, hell, we even see Emet open up a little with the Talos scene in Kholusia. All of that was just…missing in EW. I didn’t feel any struggle, i didn’t feel like i had just averted a planet decimating apocalypse. It felt like i averted some small scale war if that.