Endwalker vs shadowbringers story, which did you enjoy more and why? (spoilers)

[kpxmanifesto]

I wonder if that's Haurchefant's fault? The Famitsu survey listed him as the #3 most popular character and HW was the last time any major protagonists were killed.

It's definitely possible. I also personally think that SE's motivations are for reasons that are mostly financial. Someone said it on a different thread: "George Lucas doesn't think dead Han Solo action figures will sell," or something like that. A company's goal is to maximize profit, and killing off a popular character might hinder that.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I can't think of any examples of a story ending with the world getting destroyed despite the heroes' attempts to save it. I wouldn't ever anticipate it to happen unless there's some kind of specific foreshadowing going on within the individual story.

A stand-alone story still has narrative rules. It still creates a world and it's still a tragic thing if that world gets destroyed - for the people within the story if not for the reader, but quite possibly for the reader as well. Unless you can write a convincing case for it being a good (or at least narratively enjoyable) thing that the heroes failed and the world got destroyed, people are not likely to find it a satisfying ending.

The average story that starts with a threat to the world will end with the threat being averted by the heroes. That is just how stories work at a basic level. It's not something that the writers of FFXIV have any good reason to subvert even if they wanted to and narratively were free to do so.

Final fantasy 7 ends with humanity becoming extinct. FF13-2 ends with the world being destroyed and the main protagonist dying and the villain winning despite the heroes’ attempts to avert it.

[Hyperia]

Final fantasy 7 ends with humanity becoming extinct. FF13-2 ends with the world being destroyed and the main protagonist dying and the villain winning despite the heroes’ attempts to avert it.

Yep, not going to play those games now, thank you for saving me the money! I hate bad endings, I play games to feel better, not worse.

[Theodric]

It's not even the case where we necessarily need the world to actually end so much as having some losses and stakes on the side of the major protagonists. We've reached a point where even many minor characters are clad in ridiculous levels of plot armour.

I'd have more sympathy for people not wanting their 'faves' to die if many of those very same individuals didn't also demand that if a character so much as looks at their self insert in the 'wrong' way then they have to die or be humiliated/changed somehow.

Variety is the spice of life and a decent amount of people enjoy darker narratives. A balance can be struck and I'd rather not see the game pander to those who threaten to quit because a game rated for ages sixteen and over decided to have some lasting consequences every once in a while.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Yep, not going to play those games now, thank you for saving me the money! I hate bad endings, I play games to feel better, not worse.

To each their own, people enjoy different things. I think for each of those games, the journey is what’s important. Not necessarily just how it all ends.

[DPZ2]

Final fantasy 7 ends with humanity becoming extinct. FF13-2 ends with the world being destroyed and the main protagonist dying and the villain winning despite the heroes’ attempts to avert it.

Your examples are single-player RPGs, not an MMORPG. The only time humanity will become extinct in this game is when the game servers are shut down for the last time.

[DPZ2]

Variety is the spice of life and a decent amount of people enjoy darker narratives. A balance can be struck and I'd rather not see the game pander to those who threaten to quit because a game rated for ages sixteen and over decided to have some lasting consequences every once in a while.

There are plenty of games where darker narratives exist, some in the Final Fantasy series. That does not mean that this game has to go that route, as much as some players might wish for it. You assume that not going darker is pandering. I assume it is the right of the creator to determine how dark a narrative becomes, not the players.

There are consequences in this game, as we see over and over again. Just not the ones you might desire.

Single-player RPGs have a "game over" when you, the player, dies. (After which, of course, you negate that death by reverting to a Saved Game.)

By virtue of the genre, MMORPGs cannot take that route.

[Theodric]

There are plenty of games where darker narratives exist, some in the Final Fantasy series. That does not mean that this game has to go that route, as much as some players might wish for it. You assume that not going darker is pandering. I assume it is the right of the creator to determine how dark a narrative becomes, not the players.

There are consequences in this game, as we see over and over again. Just not the ones you might desire.

Single-player RPGs have a "game over" when you, the player, dies. (After which, of course, you negate that death by reverting to a Saved Game.)

By virtue of the genre, MMORPGs cannot take that route.

Perhaps instead of trying to gatekeep what the game is 'supposed' to be it can instead be acknowledged that the genre is by its very nature meant to appeal to a varied range of tastes. ARR and HW were pretty dark and had many consequences for the antagonists and protagonists alike. So a precedent has been set and I don't think it is at all unreasonable for at least one major death to occur on the side of the self proclaimed 'heroes'.

It'd help strike a balance in the eyes of many, especially those of us who are more interested in the idea of a compelling story with relatively high stakes instead of unskippable cutscenes watching the creepy, obsessive G'raha eat a burger. People can have their slice of life moments with their comfort characters and still have consequences and stakes elsewhere. They're not mutually exclusive.

...and no, I don't consider the lazy deaths of throwaway red shirt characters to be a meaningful 'consequence'. As creepy as the Tesleen scene was back in Shadowbringer, she's very much a non entity in the grand scheme of things. Having someone such as Y'shtola or Alisae succumb to the threat of turning into a Sin Eater, however...well, that'd be closer to the heights of 'high stakes' that games such as Final Fantasy VII embraced with a certain character's death.

[KizuyaKatogami]

There are plenty of games where darker narratives exist, some in the Final Fantasy series. That does not mean that this game has to go that route, as much as some players might wish for it. You assume that not going darker is pandering. I assume it is the right of the creator to determine how dark a narrative becomes, not the players.

There are consequences in this game, as we see over and over again. Just not the ones you might desire.

Single-player RPGs have a "game over" when you, the player, dies. (After which, of course, you negate that death by reverting to a Saved Game.)

By virtue of the genre, MMORPGs cannot take that route.

The thing is this game did take that route in ARR and HW and to some extent SB. However lately it’s been nothing but wins for the protagonists with little to no sacrifices or consequences for their actions. Also, how do we know the creators even have full liberty? As we saw on the recent Ishikawa interview, her original draft of EW was required to be changed. What if it was darker and the devs didn’t let her do that in fear of the community? There haven’t been consequences for a long time. Yoshi P himself addressed this.

[DPZ2]

Perhaps instead of trying to gatekeep what the game is 'supposed' to be it can instead be acknowledged that the genre is by its very nature meant to appeal to a varied range of tastes. ARR and HW were pretty dark and had many consequences for the antagonists and protagonists alike. So a precedent has been set and I don't think it is at all unreasonable for at least one major death to occur on the side of the self proclaimed 'heroes'.

It'd help strike a balance in the eyes of many, especially those of us who are more interested in the idea of a compelling story with relatively high stakes instead of unskippable cutscenes watching the creepy, obsessive G'raha eat a burger. People can have their slice of life moments with their comfort characters and still have consequences and stakes elsewhere. They're not mutually exclusive.

You are talking to the wrong audience. I have no problem with a darker storyline. I just do not expect it to happen, given the storylines I've experienced over the last 8 years. The author/creator is the one who has the ultimate decision in this.

One may express displeasure to other readers when an author/creator decides not to go as dark as you might desire, but realize that there are plenty of other readers who are happy with the results. Do not call out the author/creator as pandering because you didn't get the story you wanted rather than the story the author/creator wrote.

Again, there were consequences in the current storyline, just not the ones you were expecting or might personally desire.