Would you be ok with a good rival figure for 7.0+?(6.0 spoilers)

[Tehmon]

Rivals are tricky, because they are essentially forcing the player character to form a somewhat meaningful relationship with the antagonistic character, because they are a crucial story element and an important figure when it comes to molding your character and their story. Thus, if you don't end up liking your rival, or don't feel that they should have such a big influence on your character and their story, it can get pretty obnoxious. I feel like that's partly why a lot of people don't really enjoy Zenos.

The thing is, there are very few antagonists and villains who specifically have an interest in the WoL. Most of the time WoL is just an annoyance who is foiling the villains plans, and need to be taken care of. That is the most that usually happens. But with Zenos, his story eventually revolves around the WoL, and WoL meets his first match in Zenos, thus it's hard to really ignore his presence if you don't end up enjoying what he is bringing to the table. That's why it's really hard to implement a rival, especially one that stick around for several expansions.

[RyuDragnier]

The thing is, there are very few antagonists and villains who specifically have an interest in the WoL. Most of the time WoL is just an annoyance who is foiling the villains plans, and need to be taken care of. That is the most that usually happens. But with Zenos, his story eventually revolves around the WoL, and WoL meets his first match in Zenos, thus it's hard to really ignore his presence if you don't end up enjoying what he is bringing to the table. That's why it's really hard to implement a rival, especially one that stick around for several expansions.

There are a few unfinished "villain" characters that could potentially fit the bill for a rival. I keep tossing Noah Gabranth out there simply because of how he has a vision, will take a back seat if somebody will get it for him, tends to be manipulative, and in general just feels like somebody who could be our friend at one moment and an enemy at another, and probably have no hard feelings between us. A case of "I understand what you're doing, I applaud what you're aiming for...but I'm fighting you because I don't agree with the method."

[EaraGrace]

There are a few unfinished "villain" characters that could potentially fit the bill for a rival. I keep tossing Noah Gabranth out there simply because of how he has a vision, will take a back seat if somebody will get it for him, tends to be manipulative, and in general just feels like somebody who could be our friend at one moment and an enemy at another, and probably have no hard feelings between us. A case of "I understand what you're doing, I applaud what you're aiming for...but I'm fighting you because I don't agree with the method."

Spoilers for Bozja

Misija came close to that for me, but the no hard feelings wasn’t exactly met lol

[sidurgu-12]

Spoilers for Bozja

Misija came close to that for me, but the no hard feelings wasn’t exactly met lol

ten letters

for the life of me i just cant bring myself to sympathize with misija and the garleans. especially when they resorted to tempering and experimental super soldiers.

[Lyth]

I think that there absolutely should be hard feelings. We've had an overly amicable relationship with most prior antagonists to date. Villains start off as cartoon villain chaotic evil, complete with wide eyes and maniacal grin aimed at the ceiling, and then get rehabilitated into relatable, sympathetic, and tragic antiheros as we get to know them better (because everyone is good and wonderful deep down when they set aside the crazy). The problem is that neither end of this spectrum is particularly intimidating, which is what you really want in an opponent. Most of the assorted Ascians that we've killed off seem to have attended the Ardyn Izunia school for the dramatic arts, but none of them managed to successfully exude the sheer amount of menace that he did. They're interesting characters but not effective villains. Most of the really memorable Final Fantasy villains definitely made things personal.

Lolorito is probably one of the few antagonists that we've faced off against that doesn't really fit the above mold, in part because you're not usually allowed much emotional insight into his actions. He's also fairly calculated in his moves, rather than having an overarching plan to 'cause random mayhem'. His primary disadvantage is that he's not particularly menacing. But you could take a few pointers from his character.

I think that they should give the misguided yet relatable lunatics a rest for a bit and try to create an opponent for us that is not easy to read or relate to and is genuinely menacing. And most importantly of all, make them unapologetically malicious towards us when they finally show their hand. Not because the world happened to break them. But because they are specifically are out to break us.

[Cleretic]

There are a few unfinished "villain" characters that could potentially fit the bill for a rival. I keep tossing Noah Gabranth out there simply because of how he has a vision, will take a back seat if somebody will get it for him, tends to be manipulative, and in general just feels like somebody who could be our friend at one moment and an enemy at another, and probably have no hard feelings between us. A case of "I understand what you're doing, I applaud what you're aiming for...but I'm fighting you because I don't agree with the method."

Further Bozja spoilers.

Gabranth is dead; he was dying of natural causes, but possibly killed anyway. Actually, the only notable characters in the IVth Legion explicitly stated to still be alive and un-captured are Lyon, Pagaga, and Sicinius (the scientist); there's a couple others like Clarricie who were alive last we saw them, but got no presence in the epilogue.

Misija was good for what she was, but what she was wasn't supposed to be 'sympathetic rival character'. You're supposed to recognize that she had a point and a valid reason why she took the stance she did, but that those reasons didn't excuse the actions she took--but as a flipside, that the actions she took do not invalidate her reasons for doing so.

She was inevitably kinda gonna get taken poorly by the playerbase, because she does stand at odds with what the FFXIV playerbase has historically liked out of villains; as an overall community, we like a sympathetic enemy with emotionally relatable motivations, even if their plan is bonkers-ass nonsense (hell, I'd argue especially if their plan is bonkers-ass nonsense; the nonsense means the cost is abstracted and only the motivations remain humanized). We're less inclined to like someone whose motivation is largely grounded in fact, no matter how correct that fact may be.

[KageTokage]

Misija was good for what she was, but what she was wasn't supposed to be 'sympathetic rival character'. You're supposed to recognize that she had a point and a valid reason why she took the stance she did, but that those reasons didn't excuse the actions she took--but as a flipside, that the actions she took do not invalidate her reasons for doing so.

She was inevitably kinda gonna get taken poorly by the playerbase, because she does stand at odds with what the FFXIV playerbase has historically liked out of villains; as an overall community, we like a sympathetic enemy with emotionally relatable motivations, even if their plan is bonkers-ass nonsense (hell, I'd argue especially if their plan is bonkers-ass nonsense; the nonsense means the cost is abstracted and only the motivations remain humanized). We're less inclined to like someone whose motivation is largely grounded in fact, no matter how correct that fact may be.

Honestly, all they needed to do to make me have a higher opinion of her would've been to just not make her so senselessly vindictive and sadistic towards the Resistance and its allies as a whole, especially Mikoto.

Fordola was in a similar position, but only ever seems angry and frustrated with the lot she was dealt in life which made her feel worthy of sympathy even before her past comes to light, whereas Misija basically just degrades into a completely unlikable villain the instant she shows her true colors. Though Bozja as a whole kind of suffered from that with the 4th legion basically being team war crimes with how unapologetically evil virtually all of their notable characters were despite the supposedly great and honorable man their leader was.

[Cleretic]

Honestly, all they needed to do to make me have a higher opinion of her would've been to just not make her so senselessly vindictive and sadistic towards the Resistance and its allies as a whole, especially Mikoto.

Okay, that's nice, but you've assumed you're supposed to. And I don't think you are.

Misija is basically a character made out of that 'Heartbreaking: Worst Person You Know Just Made A Great Point' Clickhole article. Yeah, she's by no means a good person, and kinda proves that every step of the way but the last; her final act to protect us from the Diablo Arrmament is basically the only good thing she ever does for anyone that isn't the Empire. But not one single sin of hers takes away from her entirely valid point that the IVth Legion genuinely does treat the common folk better. Hell, her saving us at the end was probably more out of that than the goodness of her heart; I think she saved Bajsaljen because he was the only person of authority in the Bozjan resistance to actually listen to her point; if he dies, nothing gets to change.

I think you like Fordola more in that way because you're actually supposed to like Fordola as a person. Misija is just a character with fundamentally different construction and intention, and while you could certainly improve her, I don't think the angle is to make her nicer. I sort of think the purpose of her character is to bring us that extreme of 'terrible person, still right', to show us that while lofty ideals don't forgive evil acts, so too do evil acts not invalidate lofty ideals.

I'd say her MSQ equivalent in that might not be Fordola, but of Emet-Selch's largely emotionally-driven exploration of the same thing. Emet-Selch did objectively bad things because of strong emotional reasons, can you forgive that? Similarly, Misija did objectively bad things because of a strong logical reason; can you forgive that? And if that's the intention, asking for Misija's point to be cut with sympathy before you think better of her sort of disarms the whole point of the question--or rather, says that your answer is most assuredly 'no'.

I think Misija's one of those difficult sorts of characters to talk about 'liking', because she kinda stands apart from all the other characters in the game in terms of how you're supposed to like her. Which is 'not as a person'.

[sidurgu-12]

snip

imo her whole point is hurt because we're never shown the ivth interacting with civilians (iirc) but we do see them use expendable super soldiers and experiments. yeah we're told their laws help non garleans and the resistance leader adopts some of said laws but we never see it in action. granted it was a battlefield.

[KageTokage]

It's clear they knew a lot of people would dislike her given that the choices you're allowed to make in Zadnor, though not even her logic felt very sound when they did virtually nothing to humanize the 4th Legion and make them actually seem better then the Resistance in any way aside from lacking stuffy nobles/elites who trash talk their "lessers" behind their backs, which was offset by having compassionate leaders who desired the removal of the status quo (As opposed to Menenius who spares no words in making it clear how utterly expendable she was to them).

I guess she ultimately just didn't feel fulfilling to me on either front...though she did at least succeed at being one of the few characters other then Zenos I felt an intense desire to send to an early grave.