What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Teraq]

Never mind the terrible time loop plot point or Venat taking a single line from Meteion about some distant alien civilisation and absolutely running with it like an olympic athlete because she found the WoL cool, I've got to give it to Kairos for not only being an awfully convenient memory wipe machine, but also possessing the power to make everyone in its vicinity a dumb-ass.



Are you going to tell me that literally nobody investigated an incident in which one of the most important people on the planet (as well as his also-kind-of-a-big-deal friend) got his memory wiped by a goddamned memory wipe machine? The memory wipe machine that he himself found dodgy as soon as he heard about it because this is apparently something restricted by law, as he mentions it potentially making Pashtarot jump out of his seat? Is... is everyone just going to roll with that??? Does nobody in Elpis find this fishy at all? I mean there was quite the commotion outside Ktsis Hyperboreia when we went in. Why did Emet-Selch not retract himself from evaluating Hermes right there and then? Why not postpone the process and assign another Convocation member to reevaluate Hermes once the situation has been fully investigated and figured out? IS ANYONE ON THIS CONVOCATION OKAY???

God damn it this plot you guys ffs

(I propose an AU where the Convocation raises the alarm about what happened, Pashtarot goes to investigate things in Elpis with Echo abilities and he discovers the truth with complete horror, asking Elidibus how to proceed and what, exactly, to do with Hermes... and Venat, due to the very dubious implications of her not telling anyone a peep about the whole deal.)

Not sure if it really was wise to depict them as tempered instead of just letting them have their very own different personalities without any influences other than their own convictions and duties. In a way it makes things less interesting.

Hard agree. Going further, if we were going with tempering anyway, then I would have liked Ascians, Unsundered and Sundered, to reflect on it and what it means to them, how they think it's affecting them or not, free will, etc. Sort of like the couple of other examples we have of unsundered beings getting tempered, i.e. Tiamat and Altima in their Convocation crystal.

[PawPaw]

Are you going to tell me that literally nobody investigated an incident in which one of the most important people on the planet (as well as his also-kind-of-a-big-deal friend) got his memory wiped by a goddamned memory wipe machine?

I will never stop laughing about this scene and the lack of any kind of logical followup. They all come out of Ktsis, Emet-Selch is mad as hell that their memories have been wiped, everyone around them is like "but where are the other two people who went in with you?" and "oh look! there's Venat's dog so she must be ok somewhere" and Hythlodaeus is all "a strange familiar? I'll have to ask about that" and then nothing comes of this?? Wouldn't any normal person want to know why five people went in and three came out? Emet-Selch just brushes off the memory wiping machine that was so shady prior to this that he mentions Pashtarot may have a mild coronary when they find out it exists, and gets back to Convocation business? No one wants to investigate exactly wtf this guy has been allowing to happen on his watch at the research facility before considering him for the Convocation? Or wtf Venat was doing after everyone mentions her being at the scene of the accident?

[Brinne]

I agree it’s pretty silly that the circumstances weren’t further looked into, and that the truth obviously would have begun to crack open with the slightest scrutiny. Hythlodaeus’s comment about Venat is particularly bizarre, as it leaves us with the implication that beyond generally staying silent about what happened… did Venat, uh, blatantly lie to Hythlo’s face, too, when questioned?

But I do want to go ahead and say I think Emet’s characterization in the scene itself – and possibly, if you want to extend it, him maybe going to bat for Hermes when they brought him before the Convocation – is consistent, and I think it makes sense given what we know of him and what we’ve seen up until that point. Remembering the whole scene, Emet isn’t just brushing aside the question of the lost memories because he considers it unimportant – he’s prioritizing making sure Hermes is okay. The false memories after the wipe, as Venat said, left Hermes devastated because he believes Meteion just exploded before his eyes, so Emet is focused on that.

Because before things went to hell in Ktisis, Emet obviously really, really liked Hermes and sympathized with him a lot. Emet, of the three Ancients in our group, is the one who dwells on the fact of Hermes’s suffering and wonders more deeply upon it, trying to imagine what it would be like to feel as he does. When you talk to him directly after Hermes has his huge meltdown over the murder wolves, Emet’s comment - his response to that entire debacle - is that he thinks Hermes would be an excellent Fandaniel, and that the Convocation would be lesser without him. This is what he got out of seeing Hermes’s explosion of pain. He’s sympathetic. He repeats and urges him to take the offer to join the Convocation after he sees it happen – because he feels terrible for him and sees that this job is causing him misery, and also, I think, to offer him a platform to raise his concerns to a higher level where maybe he’ll be able to enact change. You’ll notice that Emet, in a way that might be a little surprising given how caustic he tries to be – also stays silent and just takes it when Hermes blows up in his face during that same meltdown.

Even from the beginning, when Emet is trying to kick us out of highly confidential Convocation business, he relents and lets us tag along because Hermes says he’ll feel better if we’re there for the conversation. Giving in to helping out Hermes with the charybdis – and when he lets his guard down, outright beaming about it – also speaks for itself. Emet is also the one who first proposes bringing Hermes into the group to figure out what’s going on with the Final Days and getting his help in understanding them. Emet-Selch is a bleeding heart. So of course at the end he’s not actually that concerned, asides from his usual tsundere whining, about what was done to him when he thinks Hermes could be seriously hurt.

(This all becomes sort of darkly hilarious because it's apparent that Hermes hates Emet. Really, at the edge of oblivion, the end of your tale, the end of the world, the person you focus on is Emet-Selch in hopes that he's seething as hard as possible? Okay my dude.)

We already saw Emet tell Hermes to take the Convocation seat because “oh no he’s sad” once. I could easily see him doing it again in the wake of Hermes mourning Meteion and beating himself up over the “accident.” Yes, Emet fussing about Hermes and offering him a seat on the highest governance in the world because he felt really bad for him is pretty dumb. But then again, literally every single thing he did in Shadowbringers in terms of reaching out to us was also pretty dumb, and led directly to his own demise. As Ishikawa said, his kindness is his downfall - pretty consistently, it turns out.

[Teraq]

snip

What do you make of Emet asking us after Hermes flies off "Do you understand what's going on in Hermes's mind? Because I don't, at all."? I suppose that counts as things having already gone to hell, as he then proceeds to show zero patience toward Hermes throughout the dungeon.

My take on Elpis Emet-Selch had always been that he's kind of dragging his feet through it all. Am I projecting my own feelings towards Endwalker and how little patience I have with Hermes's character on him? ...possibly. I have to say this is actually making me like Emet less, though to be fair he's never exactly been my favorite to begin with.

Yes, Emet fussing about Hermes and offering him a seat on the highest governance in the world because he felt really bad for him is pretty dumb.

Especially since Hermes himself replies that in the state of mind he's in, he would be hard-pressed to take any sort of decision for humanity. Which I 100% agree with, for once!

[Brinne]

What do you make of Emet asking us after Hermes flies off "Do you understand what's going on in Hermes's mind? Because I don't, at all."? I suppose that counts as things having already gone to hell, as he then proceeds to show zero patience toward Hermes throughout the dungeon.

Yeah, I think it's clear that Emet's feelings on Hermes change after he crosses a line by running off with Meteion. Another thing about Emet is that he is willing to re-evaluate his stance as circumstances change - as Venat noted (and used to her advantage, lol), and as is the entire basis of everything he did in Shadowbringers.

Especially since Hermes himself replies that in the state of mind he's in, he would be hard-pressed to take any sort of decision for humanity. Which I 100% agree with, for once!

I mean, hey, it's pretty consistent with Emet inviting us to the Tempest because he felt bad for us, when just leaving us alone as we were would have completely secured his victory. Or giving in and helping us with Y'shtola, who then went and helped kill him later, too. Bleeding heart gonna bleeding heart. He feels the need to act outwardly caustic because his kindness and the empathy he feels for others, in spite of himself, basically tends to leads him to self-sabotage - both in Shadowbringers and Endwalker. It doesn't help that he's terrible at communication and being honest with others. Emet-Selch is a mess! (Unsurprisingly, I love him as a character.)

[Rulakir]

They've basically left the ancient Azem's actions open to player interpretation for now at least and down to how their character would react, without committing to it. With that said, it'd sit ill at ease with me for my character to basically screw over their people for non-ancient life forms, if it amounted to that, which I'm not too convinced of for now, particularly because I believe they're trying to steer clear from that as the focal point given how polarising it could be. Having them be complicit in her actions would more or less be the final straw for me and I think they'd be wise to leave it as it is if that's where they're going with it.

Azem being #TeamSundering is inconsistent with what we've seen of their reincarnations as well. Neither Ardbert or the WoL would've been on board with it. It's another issue I have with them depicting Venat as they did, not only as extremely likeable but also as former Convocation and Azem's mentor, because the question then becomes why wouldn't Azem be on her side? There also isn't anything story wise that would prevent Azem from having worked with her in secret unlike with Zodiark it's made abundantly clear Azem had no hand it to the extent that they were considered a traitor and denied a memory crystal.

I think the writers/devs should've stuck with Azem absolutely not being on either side, but now they've left it ambiguous for Hydaelyn. At most we have the Anyder scene where one of her followers says Azem essentially isn't returning their calls.

But I do want to go ahead and say I think Emet’s characterization in the scene itself – and possibly, if you want to extend it, him maybe going to bat for Hermes when they brought him before the Convocation – is consistent, and I think it makes sense given what we know of him and what we’ve seen up until that point.

What are your thoughts on his scenes in Ultima Thule? It's the only part where I thought his characterization was questionable. He hated Hydaelyn in ShB, now suddenly because he knows it was Venat he's only slightly perturbed? Then there's the controversial line of "Still, you must be commended. Our methods would not have brought mankind this far." Which, upon viewing that scene again, is that even meant for Venat? Emet is looking directly at the WoL when he says it after which he says "And so, as a show of respect to the last of us (which I took to mean the WoL), I make this declaration."

[Teraq]

It's another issue I have with them depicting Venat as they did, not only as extremely likeable but also as former Convocation and Azem's mentor, because the question then becomes why wouldn't Azem be on her side?

On that particular point, I seem to recall it is our Azem that describes her as a "warm person yet simultaneously distant", as relayed by... Hythlo? My brain is mush today. I've always found this line to paint her in a very ambivalent way, and personally I choose to interpret it as Azem knowing her better than most, which might be exactly why they might not immediately jump to her side.

Reviewing my screenshots, I can (unfortunately) confirm Emet's line in Ultima Thule was meant for Venat. 3rd person gendered female in French, my WoL is male. As for "a show of respect to the last of us (which I took to mean the WoL)", well...

Here, I'm handing you back the copium still.

Oh, ohh, I know what plausibly makes it very coherent in-universe: de-tempering via death combined with Zodiark's. Look, I hate it, but...

[PawPaw]

Reviewing my screenshots, I can (unfortunately) confirm Emet's line in Ultima Thule was meant for Venat. 3rd person gendered female in French, my WoL is male. As for "a show of respect to the last of us (which I took to mean the WoL)", well...

Wow, this makes me feel ill. Not only do they drag him back to give a speech about what a smarty this sociopath was, he says this and is referring to her? Didn't think this could actually get worse.

[Rulakir]

Reviewing my screenshots, I can (unfortunately) confirm Emet's line in Ultima Thule was meant for Venat. 3rd person gendered female in French, my WoL is male. As for "a show of respect to the last of us (which I took to mean the WoL)", well...

Thanks for further ruining that scene for me. :P j/k Venat doesn't exist in any capacity at that point, it doesn't even make sense for him to refer to her as "the last of us".

Speaking of which, did Elidibus know Hydaelyn was Venat? This has been bugging me because he also says (as he sends us to Elpis) "Yours is the mantle of the last of us."

[Teraq]

Thanks for further ruining that scene for me.

I'll never forgive the JapaneseFrench!

Speaking of which, did Elidibus know Hydaelyn was Venat? This has been bugging me because he also says (as he sends us to Elpis) "Yours is the mantle of the last of us."

No idea about this one. In his last lines he only calls her Hydaelyn while acknowledging her as the last of "authentic mankind". It's entirely possible that he doesn't remember the person she was.