What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Kyohei]

The thing is though that she probably shouldn't have been "on the run" to begin with if that was indeed the case. Everything we saw indicated that she was highly respected by her peers, though they did seem to think she was a little too worldly by their standards. Either way it wouldn't have been difficult to for her to make her case to the Convocation.

Yeah I'm very aware of this and even said it in many of my replies.

We can see in Elpis how revered she is by the ancients (even Emet-Selch, you can see that if you talk to him between quests though I don't remember which ones). Honestly she's what's the closest to what royalty would be if such a thing existed in ancient times. Sure, that manifests as an ancient telling her to go and die, but dying peacefully is the highest reward according to them and proof of a fulfilled life.
Anyway, added to this we know that people in the area were aware of the WoL's presence who took the identity of "Azem's familiar".
Then when also taking into account that Venat, Azem, Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus seemed to actually be very close, and that the two latter knew something happened to their memory after Ktisis.
Taking all this into account, how we get to the conclusion that it's better to not try to retell the story as it really happened is hard to take at face value. The whole decision screams lack of faith from Venat in her friends and the ancients in general. Because again, they wouldn't have simply dismissed Venat's words considering the way she was viewed.

Also think they did write themselves in a corner. The way it ended up looking, in order to avoid making the game not needing to exist, is her lacking trust in her fellow ancients.

But her dialogue I meant, felt she implied she would avoid the Convocation while trying to find people. Not saying it's what she should've done, just what it seems she did for reasons.

[Iscah]

It sort of comes down to SE writing themselves into a corner. If she had been able to change the course of their history, our characters and the world we know would cease to exist. Kinda hard to do that in an MMORPG when our characters and the game world sorta need to continue existing.

They wrote themselves into a corner by not wiping her memory alongside the others. We should have fled alone with Argos and she stayed behind to (perhaps deliberately) forget what she had been told of the future. It wouldn't make it any less likely to happen, but she would do it for more immediate logical reasons.

[Lauront]

The thing is though that she probably shouldn't have been "on the run" to begin with if that was indeed the case. Everything we saw indicated that she was highly respected by her peers, though they did seem to think she was a little too worldly by their standards. Either way it wouldn't have been difficult to for her to make her case to the Convocation. It sort of comes down to SE writing themselves into a corner. If she had been able to change the course of their history, our characters and the world we know would cease to exist. Kinda hard to do that in an MMORPG when our characters and the game world sorta need to continue existing.

I don't see it as a particular issue, not when prior examples of time travel result in AUs... and I don't recall any of them having an issue with her worldliness. Emet-Selch is also stated to be very well travelled. He just doesn't go advertising it at every opportunity. What she was considered to be was very eccentric/quirky.

Honestly, I think it would been better if the Ancient World was a lot more like Numenor from LotR. An Ancient nation that was the peak of Men, with wonders and might the world had not seen since then, with following nations not even coming close to its splendor. However, its people grew arrogant, vain and prideful, leading to discard the old ways and spit on old friendships. Eventually they tried to invade Aman and the Undying Lands, leading to Eru to make the World round, leading the sinking of Numenor beneath the ocean.

If the Ancient had been more like that, making them brush other concerns under their notice, if they only had a purpose of making the world better only for themselves, it might of been easier to understand Venat but sadly they didn't go that route.

No thanks. Already enough of that in fantasy settings and it'd just encourage the community's more unreasonable elements to start using it to justify their downfall... as it is they're already doing that with aspects where they're having to really twist certain aspects of the ancients to do so. That would've been even worse.

And I thought that would also explain why they had to be sundered, as they had too much power they could lose control over at any moment, so splitting them into less powerful beings was seen as a necessity. And since the Final Days would have been a mess of their own making then sacrificing others to undo its aftermath could have been deemed more inexcusable.

And instead we got... this mess I'm still scratching my head about.

My assumption was that she confused a symptom (loss of control of creation magicks) with the cause and so decided to remove creation magicks from the equation.

We'll have to agree to disagree then because I find this to be an absolutely wonderful aspect of their culture. To find what it is you personally want to do in life and to be able to pursue that goal to the fullest and then when you're tired and feel there is nothing more for you to do, to pass on and rest for a while before being reborn? Sounds great to me. And it's obviously something that is the individual's choice. No one is forced to move on and while people may not fully understand the desire to stay, they certainly don't seem to be shunning those who do decide to.

Every day I see people around me who are just going through the motions. Ever watch faces on a subway in the morning? Most people don't get to do what they truly love for a living, they just do what they have to do to pay the bills and there is no joy in it. Slow march to the end. So yeah, I find a society in which one can embrace their talents and use them to the fullest as well as live out their lives in peace with their loved ones before choosing when they want to rest to be pretty ideal. Why should one choose to drag life out for the sake of finding a new purpose? If one feels content with what theyve accomplished in their life then why should it be odd to move on? Who the hell would want to live forever? Sounds like a nightmare.

And to be honest, Venat strikes me as being one of those people who thinks that nothing can be done correctly if they're not the ones doing it. Not surprising at all that she stuck around.

Agree, I think they had a happy medium between some of the races that just went on forever and ever (although I think the setting's depiction of the Ea is a bit silly, if I'm honest, especially when they throw in Y'shtola simply shrugging off what vexed them), and the sundered, whose lives are ended whether they like it or not when their briefer lifespan ends, i.e. the choice is out of their hands. That latter aspect is something we humans have to accept and try make peace with (and many do e.g. through belief in an afterlife), but the ancients don't have to do this as they can elect when they go, and we ourselves could one day find ourselves in that position as our technology progresses. I recall this when I was a teen, and my grandfather was close to passing away, my parents just remarked about how he wasn't fighting it because he was content with all he'd done in his life and was ready to move on. So it's certainly a relatable sentiment; with a bit of lateral thinking, you can see how it might come to dominate in a civilisation with the traits of the ancients and the rules of the setting.

Obviously there's no reincarnation (that we know of) IRL, so it's a slightly different dynamic in that regard, but it's reasonable to think truly living forever may be unappealing to many - on the other hand, being able to extend that time, live without diseases (including the effects of ageing) which hinder you and use it to enjoy and see more of the world and focus on pursuits you truly find intrinsically satisfying? That's a more appealing proposition. I do suspect it's possible that many ancients may have shifted their perspective if they had learnt the truth of what was happening to the broader universe to re-populating/reviving other stars, especially if Meteion was brought down sooner rather than later, and serving as guiding figures to them like the dragons do in some cases on Etheirys.

[BaconBits]

Somewhere out there, there's an alternate universe where Ishikawa went full throttle on the time travel shenanigans and our actions on Elpis not only created an alternate timeline where the Ancients didn't get sundered and survived, but 12k years later they finally discovered how to freely travel between said timelines and sent a few familiar faces to aid the Sundered in their time of need.

Cheesy as all get out? Absolutely, and it would more than likely cause just as much criticism as the "Big Mommy Venat" debacle, but I think it would be funny. If a bunch of technicians, a space robot and a time-warping robot primal on a dying planet can figure out how to send a giant crystal tower back through time and space, then so can a bunch of nigh-immortal Space Wizards.

[SpectrePhantasia]

Speaking for myself, I'm fine with the Ancients not getting a happy ending. Despite being huge fans of them, their loss and extinction adds weight to those final clashes in Shadowbringers. As mentioned previously, its a terrible thing that the WoL resolved to do, and the acknowledgment and weight of that is what keeps it effective. There's that, as well as that it adds to Emet-selch's decision to finally pass the torch to the Sundered, and assist you in giving his friend Elidibus his rest, so that he won't suffer on alone. It's painful, but Emet fought and lost, and can no longer lie to himself in saying the Sundered aren't alive, which I think is really bittersweet and wonderful writing.

Elidibus comes to see things similarly, and while I do love the English localization's poetic writing of "The rains have ceased..." in truth, his actual last words in Japanese were rather simple, and included a common Japanese saying of "Shikata ga nai" essentially meaning, "It can't be helped," which I think is also very potent. I took it as him realizing there's nothing they can do to bring the ones they love back, because the Sundered are real living people, just like them, and they can't deny that anymore. So while it hurts, there's nothing to be done about it now.

Sometimes bad things happen to good people for no reason at all, and at the end, came a struggle between two groups of people who simply wanted to save the ones they loved. That Shadowbringers climax instilled in me far more that idea of humanity's willingness to exist than anything in the following expansion—that was entirely dedicated to that predicament. Hence my grievances.

Where my issue arose was that there never was any justice for them. Never, after being clearly affected by the Ancients and their struggle, did the WoL ever question the person who singlehandedly ended them (Got our one dialogue option and a fat load of good that did). I genuinely think Meteion was a scapegoat to avoid this. No matter how noble Venat's intentions were, no matter how deep her guilt, I simply refuse to believe our character would nod and smile at her, a person who has done so much bad and has never answered for any of it. If the WoL opposes Emet-selch despite understanding his reasoning, why is this treatment not given to the even more dubious person? The initial aggressor? I understand not outright attacking her, because she isn't acting against Sundered life, but anything that isn't this mom-mentor nonsense they tried to sell me. I will never understand that...

[Theodric]

It's unlikely that Venat went on the run based on her decision to reach out to both the Convocation and Azem in order to express concerns regarding Zodiark which was shown briefly during the delve into the remnants of Anamnesis Anyder.

As of Endwalker, we also know that Venat was simply feigning concern over Zodiark and that it was actually an effective plan that would keep the Final Days at bay for a very long time. Quite simply, Venat didn't try to be truthful or even inform her people of what was happening behind the scenes - nor was it ever reasonable for the Ancients to ever believe of their own accord that an unhinged bird-girl had flown into space to slowly kill any planet with life left on it.

The main reason it doesn't make sense is because the writers decided to tie Venat directly and indirectly to pretty much every bad thing that has ever happened in the story...which robs not only Venat of any real agency but pretty much every other character as well.

[Kyohei]

Her dialogue in Elpis expressed that she would avoid bringing the subject with Convocation members so it felt like she avoided them at first and did things on her own. At a later point, around the time of Zodiark's summoning she made contact with the Convocation to stop them from sacrificing half of the replenished life to bring back the first batch of sacrificed.
Also, the ancients were masters of creation magic, pretty much anything could be created from it so it's not so unreasonable especially if someone such as the revered Venat was to say it.

[PawPaw]

nor was it ever reasonable for the Ancients to ever believe of their own accord that an unhinged bird-girl had flown into space to slowly kill any planet with life left on it.

Have to disagree with this part. No reason why she couldn't have used one of the many methods the Ancients have shown for reviewing memories. Very likely that they would not have believed her if she just told them without providing evidence but there were ways of getting said evidence.

[Theodric]

Her dialogue in Elpis expressed that she would avoid bringing the subject with Convocation members so it felt like she avoided them at first and did things on her own. At a later point, around the time of Zodiark's summoning she made contact with the Convocation to stop them from sacrificing half of the replenished life to bring back the first batch of sacrificed.
Also, the ancients were masters of creation magic, pretty much anything could be created from it so it's not so unreasonable especially if someone such as the revered Venat was to say it.

Have to disagree with this part. No reason why she couldn't have used one of the many methods the Ancients have shown for reviewing memories. Very likely that they would not have believed her if she just told them without providing evidence but there were ways of getting said evidence.

To be clear, by 'their own accord' I'm referring to them coming to the conclusion of Meteion's existence on their own. Venat should have told them what was coming to forewarn them, though she did not do that and instead left them scrambling about in a desperate effort to try and figure out why the Final Days were happening.

Then when they found a solution to the problems that the Final Days brought about, she decided to blame them for not finding the 'right one' and resorted to the Sundering. All without giving them any explanation.

In the end, it seems that the writers decided that the Sundering needed to happen no matter what, though they were probably hoping more people would just go along with all the cool, flashy cutscenes and not think on the implications of what the context and consequences actually entailed.

[Kyohei]

To be clear, by 'their own accord' I'm referring to them coming to the conclusion of Meteion's existence on their own. Venat should have told them what was coming to forewarn them, though she did not do that and instead left them scrambling about in a desperate effort to try and figure out why the Final Days were happening.

Then when they found a solution to the problems that the Final Days brought about, she decided to blame them for not finding the 'right one' and resorted to the Sundering. All without giving them any explanation.

In the end, it seems that the writers decided that the Sundering needed to happen no matter what, though they were probably hoping more people would just go along with all the cool, flashy cutscenes and not think on the implications of what the context and consequences actually entailed.

Ohh, sorry didn't read it that way. Then we're on agreement in the end.
The sundering needed to happen no matter what for the simple reason Vahlnir cited, in a purely "technical" view. The moment we got to know the present world was sundered in ShB sealed the fate of the game in the sundered state. Except the reasons it happened don't make much sense when looking closely with a logical approach.
Again, I'm putting this on the lack of overview and preparation from the writers.

They could have made a branching timeline however, in which Venat takes a more logical course of action, but maybe that's what we'll see in the additional story.