What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

Interesting. Though even from the text it appears more of a promise that through sacrifice Zodiark would be able to renew the star through the same magics that are seen in Elpis. I wonder what the guarantee was of this plan being successful, and how did they plan on dealing with a Primal on the scale of Zodiark. Plus, would the potential tempering that came with a stronger and stronger Zodiark ruin their plans either way? Not to mention the threat of Meiton was still out there, so even if life was created anew, what would be different given The Song of Oblivion's presence. Mind you this is all moot due to the fact that the world HAD to be sundered for us to exist. I assume the thought process was that the ancients who presumably had not suffered and hoped on a constant basis that their sundered counterparts did would have not been able to stand against Metion, thus falling on us(and Zenos lol, though I actually liked that part).

On tempering I'd recommend you give this a read. It's ultimately a red herring, AFAIC, and mostly inserted to explain the Ascians 12k years later, because they still need to explain why e.g. Lahabrea and Nabriales acted the way they did, back before they had the SHB plot in mind. But with the primal 1) not summoned via the flawed rites the Ascians taught the beast tribes and 2) lacking a will outside of its controller, beyond perhaps self-defence instincts, it's hard to see what role it'd play, and it's given zero story significance at the time. The conflict divides the Convocation as well (touched upon here if you go to the French localisation of the SoS scene), which pushes against the hivemind interpretation of the issue many have, so provided that they acted as Emet did, and preserved their memories and identities, it may well have never become an issue for them.

Regarding whether Zodiark would succeed at restoring the star, he did succeed at that, as the second stage was a fait accompli, and succeeded in renewing the cycle of life. It's the third one which was not completed, but in all honesty, I see no reason why it would not, as the souls were preserved inside him.

The issue regarding the sundering is she 1) believed they would eventually go on a path similar to the Plenty and 2) were inherently unable to easily manipulate dynamis. 2) is debatable, because the story itself introduces a number of possible workarounds, including no less sundering - just not the entire star or race of beings, but on a more selective basis. There are other possibilities, like deploying familiars or other arcane creations without the design flaws of Meteion, exploring how the suppression field in Ktisis Hyperboreia could enable them to hone dynamis manipulation, etc. Zodiark's shield persevered for a minimum of 12k years, so it would've bought them plenty of time to experiment. 1) is also debatable, because they were not presented with concrete evidence of what was animating her concerns - she constrained what she revealed. I agree with this poster's interpretation of why that belief might've come somewhat a little too easily to her.

Emet described what the sundering did in the demonstration with Ryne: "Two individuals, identical in appearance, yet reduced in all respects. Strength, intelligence, the soul itself - all is halved." Externally they may have looked the same, but they were 1/14 the person they used to be and devoid of their memories.

Also, the sacrifices were never the real issue. Based on the LL, Venat always intended to sunder the Ancients because she believed (her personal opinion, not objective truth) that they were incapable of change or of defeating Meteion. She needed both Zodiark and for the star to be restored, which is why she didn't intervene in those sacrifices. The third one didn't matter in regards to her plan. I don't believe it's explicitly stated, but given that Elidibus had exited Zodiark in an attempt to mediate and Hydaelyn chose to sunder Zodiark at that time it may have been a calculated move on her part. I certainly wouldn't put it past her to have orchestrated the divide in society to allow for such an opening, especially given that her followers in Anyder seem oblivious to her true intent and the subsequent consequences of it.

Agreed - and I believe they may have re-considered that stage until later if presented with good reason to do so - i.e. the evidence about the Plenty and Meteion.

[Ixon]

snip

I am very much appreciative of the information given and am learning quite a bit. The only part that still confuses me is the constant mention of "prayer" in regards to Zodiark. The dialogue of Emet-Selch in the Ravel's Keep dungeon holds Zodiark in much higher regard than a creation or tool to stop the Final Days, but much more of a deity. Unsure if I am reading into it wrong, but seeing Zodiark referred to as "Him" with a capital "H" like some religions do, saying "His grace". "A savior mighty and magnificent, deserving of reverence and gratitude" really doesn't sound like something the Emet we meet on Elpis would say, which is why I am still locked on Zodiarks tempering of others. Though to be fair he also mentions how "they fought, and they fought, and they fought." which does not appear to be what happens in the cutscene we see, so both could be explained by a change in story direction.

Reading further into the plan with Zodiark though(correct me if I am wrong), it seems on the final step they were planning on sacrificing the new life brought back to Etheirys with the power of Zodiark to bring back the souls of the Ancients used to summon Zodiark initially? If so, perhaps it was that choice of sacrificing other life of Etheirys for the sake of the Ancients that both Venat(the previous Azem) and the current Azem disagreed with, both being the "Traveler" and holding life outside of the Ancients in much higher regard? On top of the preferred faith of the "future" against Metion. Though I could be missing information in this logic.

[Lauront]

I am very much appreciative of the information given and am learning quite a bit. The only part that still confuses me is the constant mention of "prayer" in regards to Zodiark. The dialogue of Emet-Selch in the Ravel's Keep dungeon holds Zodiark in much higher regard than a creation or tool to stop the Final Days, but much more of a deity. Unsure if I am reading into it wrong, but seeing Zodiark referred to as "Him" with a capital "H" like some religions do, saying "His grace". "A savior mighty and magnificent, deserving of reverence and gratitude" really doesn't sound like something the Emet we meet on Elpis would say, which is why I am still locked on Zodiarks tempering of others. Though to be fair he also mentions how "they fought, and they fought, and they fought." which does not appear to be what happens in the cutscene we see, so both could be explained by a change in story direction.

Reading further into the plan with Zodiark though(correct me if I am wrong), it seems on the final step they were planning on sacrificing the new life brought back to Etheirys with the power of Zodiark to bring back the souls of the Ancients used to summon Zodiark initially? If so, perhaps it was that choice of sacrificing other life of Etheirys for the sake of the Ancients that both Venat(the previous Azem) and the current Azem disagreed with, both being the "Traveler" and holding life outside of the Ancients in much higher regard? Though I could be missing information in this logic.

No, the final stage (and I am filling in some gaps here on what it was because the story is very vague on this life besides possessing souls; nonetheless, I think the JP version of the Hyth text is instructive) by all appearances would involve creations similar to those in Elpis. We know from the quests in Elpis (but also Emet-Selch's short story) that creations meeting the right criteria would qualify for souls from the star (the star itself spawns these), appropriate to the type of being it is, and so you'd get animal and plant life - for creations which do not qualify, they're essentially arcane entities. So when the story uses the term "life", it means creations qualifying for a soul, which the star itself bestows upon them. It is a very broad spectrum of things, mostly consisting of plant and animal life, and as KageTokage mentioned, precursors to the sort of beings comprising the beast tribes.

Current Azem opposed the summoning of Zodiark altogether, but the reasons are not given. It's possible that Venat knew what was to come and nudged them to do that without offering them any reasons and that their trust in her as a mentor led to them simply taking her word for it, hence it seeming so capricious to the remaining Convocation. The sacrifices are not given as the reason for it as their departure pre-dated his summoning.

As for Venat, the rationale given both by her and in the recent Q&A the devs did is avoiding the fate of the Plenty. Preventing the sacrifices is only a means to that end, i.e. for the ancients to desist in their efforts to revive their civilisation. If you read the sources I provided, you will see that there is very little moral condemnation discussed about the sacrifices in the scene in Anamnesis Anyder, and she even states that the Convocation was doing what it thought best to secure their star's future. The exhortation to hand over the star to the new life all seems to revolve around stopping the ancients from restoring their people and zooming ahead (in her view) to the Plenty's fate.

Just one final point - Zodiark very much is deemed to be a god, but the ancients - including Emet - see him as a manmade one. Likewise, Hydaelyn is referred to as an all-powerful being by Y'shtola, and refers to herself as a "supreme deity". This all comes down to their sheer power, rather than tempering, per se. Lahabrea and Nabriales took it a step further with their zeal and that I believe is why they brought it up - Lahabrea in particular let his identity fade through extensive body-hopping, and so the idea seems to be he was changed by it unlike Hades. Elidibus sustained memory loss but his guiding duty, stemming from the Convocation, appeared to at least allow him to retain enough of his identity to avoid going the way Lahabrea did.

[Kyohei]

This all comes down to their sheer power, rather than tempering, per se. Lahabrea and Nabriales took it a step further with their zeal and that I believe is why they brought it up - Lahabrea in particular let his identity fade through extensive body-hopping, and so the idea seems to be he was changed by it unlike Hades. Elidibus sustained memory loss but his guiding duty, stemming from the Convocation, appeared to at least allow him to retain enough of his identity to avoid going the way Lahabrea did.

Not sure if it really was wise to depict them as tempered instead of just letting them have their very own different personalities without any influences other than their own convictions and duties. In a way it makes things less interesting.

[Ixon]

snip

Thanks for the details! Without more information, I would LIKE to think that our character perhaps leaned more towards the "morality" of treasuring all life outside of the Ancients and that's why they were not involved with the initial summoning of Zodiark, if they knew full well of the entire plan. Hopefully we get more those details before they completely remove themselves from this story line. Going back to the 5.2 cutscenes where we first see Venat, the conversations seem to lead that even with the summoning of Zodiark, they were still doomed. Now either the story was changed(possible) to fit in the new narrative, or they did not think the path with Zodiark was still doomed no matter what, or they were all referring to The Plenty as their impending doom as you mentioned. As for the "tempering" of the three Unsundered to the will of Zodiark, the language could be seen as you described, but I wonder why Elidibus has a sort of "snap back to reality" moment after we defeat his Warrior of Light form as if he had forgotten his path? Though as the heart of Zodiark he would probably suffer the most influence, that and perhaps his young age played into effect. Again, most of this can be explained by missing, conflicting, ill-translated writing, but it is fun to discuss(least for me).

[Lauront]

Thanks for the details! Without more information, I would LIKE to think that our character perhaps leaned more towards the "morality" of treasuring all life outside of the Ancients and that's why they were not involved with the initial summoning of Zodiark, if they knew full well of the entire plan. Hopefully we get more those details before they completely remove themselves from this story line. Going back to the 5.2 cutscenes where we first see Venat, the conversations seem to lead that even with the summoning of Zodiark, they were still doomed. Now either the story was changed(possible) to fit in the new narrative, or they did not think the path with Zodiark was still doomed no matter what, or they were all referring to The Plenty as their impending doom as you mentioned. As for the "tempering" of the three Unsundered to the will of Zodiark, the language could be seen as you described, but I wonder why Elidibus has a sort of "snap back to reality" moment after we defeat his Warrior of Light form as if he had forgotten his path? Though as the heart of Zodiark he would probably suffer the most influence, that and perhaps his young age played into effect. Again, most of this can be explained by missing, conflicting, ill-translated writing, but it is fun to discuss(least for me).

They've basically left the ancient Azem's actions open to player interpretation for now at least and down to how their character would react, without committing to it. With that said, it'd sit ill at ease with me for my character to basically screw over their people for non-ancient life forms, if it amounted to that, which I'm not too convinced of for now, particularly because I believe they're trying to steer clear from that as the focal point given how polarising it could be. Having them be complicit in her actions would more or less be the final straw for me and I think they'd be wise to leave it as it is if that's where they're going with it. As for Elidibus, he is absolutely affected by it via the memory decay (which he allows to happen), but it's different in nature to Lahabrea because he keeps sight of his duty to his people as his ultimate motivator, while forgetting what set him on that path.

How much of it all is down to retrofitting the EW story to SHB is anyone's guess.