What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KageTokage]

It's that little bit about how Hydaelyn/Venat's followers wanted to "entrust the future" to the new life that made me think that they may not have simply been non-sentient beings and could've included things like the beastmen (Who are strongly implied to be creations in some of the Elpis sidequests).

The fact that the writers completely abandoned that moral dilemma and shifted to something ideological didn't sit that well with me...particularly because it could be interpreted as an excuse to more easily draw sympathizers to the cause then the outlandish-sounding long game she had in mind.

[Lauront]

Yes, I think there may have been such creations in the mix - if we think about it with EW in mind, given that she was privy to knowledge from the character (or at least saw them as an example), there may have been the suggestion floated that some of these beings could, in time, turn out to be intelligent life forms, capable of being guided along - however, there's still the question over how convincing such a plan would be in their eyes.

And yes, you could interpret it as an excuse on her part. I think that's what I found most surprising about the Anamnesis Anyder stuff - that there wasn't really any indication of a strong moral dispute as such. Quite the contrary, she grants their motives were good.

[PawPaw]

They had to be sundered because of their arrogance, inability to let go, and desire to never change or accept consequences.

It's funny, I was speaking with someone just today about having finally completed the Elpis funeral quest and how nice it was to see the excitement in the NPCs at being presented with a new idea that they were very open to embracing and how they were looking forward to changing the way they approached their procedures going forward. How they did exactly what you just claimed they were incapable of doing.

What were they to learn from the literal end of the world? What lessons would you take away from your world ending around you and having no idea what is causing it? What would you have done in your quest to do better when you don't even know what you did wrong, if anything, to begin with? They committed the cardinal sin of wanting their loved ones back when it was possible to get them back? Unforgivable.

[Ixon]

snip

Interesting. Though even from the text it appears more of a promise that through sacrifice Zodiark would be able to renew the star through the same magics that are seen in Elpis. I wonder what the guarantee was of this plan being successful, and how did they plan on dealing with a Primal on the scale of Zodiark. Plus, would the potential tempering that came with a stronger and stronger Zodiark ruin their plans either way? Not to mention the threat of Meiton was still out there, so even if life was created anew, what would be different given The Song of Oblivion's presence. Mind you this is all moot due to the fact that the world HAD to be sundered for us to exist. I assume the thought process was that the ancients who presumably had not suffered and hoped on a constant basis that their sundered counterparts did would have not been able to stand against Metion, thus falling on us(and Zenos lol, though I actually liked that part).

[Rulakir]

Emet described what the sundering did in the demonstration with Ryne: "Two individuals, identical in appearance, yet reduced in all respects. Strength, intelligence, the soul itself - all is halved." Externally they may have looked the same, but they were 1/14 the person they used to be and devoid of their memories.

Also, the sacrifices were never the real issue. Based on the LL, Venat always intended to sunder the Ancients because she believed (her personal opinion, not objective truth) that they were incapable of change or of defeating Meteion. She needed both Zodiark and for the star to be restored, which is why she didn't intervene in those sacrifices. The third one didn't matter in regards to her plan. I don't believe it's explicitly stated, but given that Elidibus had exited Zodiark in an attempt to mediate and Hydaelyn chose to sunder Zodiark at that time it may have been a calculated move on her part. I certainly wouldn't put it past her to have orchestrated the divide in society to allow for such an opening, especially given that her followers in Anyder seem oblivious to her true intent and the subsequent consequences of it.

[Theodric]

The ancients issue is that they couldn't let go. If they had just accepted their losses, learned from it, and strived to be better then they never would have been sundered.

The writing was on the wall. They had to be sundered because of their arrogance, inability to let go, and desire to never change or accept consequences.

I think such framing is rather deceptive. Venat chose to stand by idly and allow the Final Days to happen. After such inaction, she had very little business trying to enforce the outcome that she wanted to occur. Zodiark was a necessity in order to fix the damage inflicted by the Final Days and the Ancients not wanting their loved ones to be trapped eternally inside of Zodiark is also completely understandable and far from unreasonable.

The Ancients weren't under any obligation to bend over and conform to Venat's wishes when she was operating in bad faith and never intended to speak of her concerns or inform them of Meteion's existence. Blaming the Ancients for not 'moving on' is strange to me as well. As if people are supposed to just allow some random, unhinged individual to allow harm to befall their loved ones and deny them the ability to resolve the situation.

Had the Sundering been an accident and not a deliberate act then Venat might have come out of Endwalker looking better than she does in the eyes of many. Especially if she had been hit by the same mind wipe that affected Hythlodaeus, Hermes and Emet-Selch.

[Lauront]

Interesting. Though even from the text it appears more of a promise that through sacrifice Zodiark would be able to renew the star through the same magics that are seen in Elpis. I wonder what the guarantee was of this plan being successful, and how did they plan on dealing with a Primal on the scale of Zodiark. Plus, would the potential tempering that came with a stronger and stronger Zodiark ruin their plans either way? Not to mention the threat of Meiton was still out there, so even if life was created anew, what would be different given The Song of Oblivion's presence. Mind you this is all moot due to the fact that the world HAD to be sundered for us to exist. I assume the thought process was that the ancients who presumably had not suffered and hoped on a constant basis that their sundered counterparts did would have not been able to stand against Metion, thus falling on us(and Zenos lol, though I actually liked that part).

On tempering I'd recommend you give this a read. It's ultimately a red herring, AFAIC, and mostly inserted to explain the Ascians 12k years later, because they still need to explain why e.g. Lahabrea and Nabriales acted the way they did, back before they had the SHB plot in mind. But with the primal 1) not summoned via the flawed rites the Ascians taught the beast tribes and 2) lacking a will outside of its controller, beyond perhaps self-defence instincts, it's hard to see what role it'd play, and it's given zero story significance at the time. The conflict divides the Convocation as well (touched upon here if you go to the French localisation of the SoS scene), which pushes against the hivemind interpretation of the issue many have, so provided that they acted as Emet did, and preserved their memories and identities, it may well have never become an issue for them.

Regarding whether Zodiark would succeed at restoring the star, he did succeed at that, as the second stage was a fait accompli, and succeeded in renewing the cycle of life. It's the third one which was not completed, but in all honesty, I see no reason why it would not, as the souls were preserved inside him.

The issue regarding the sundering is she 1) believed they would eventually go on a path similar to the Plenty and 2) were inherently unable to easily manipulate dynamis. 2) is debatable, because the story itself introduces a number of possible workarounds, including no less sundering - just not the entire star or race of beings, but on a more selective basis. There are other possibilities, like deploying familiars or other arcane creations without the design flaws of Meteion, exploring how the suppression field in Ktisis Hyperboreia could enable them to hone dynamis manipulation, etc. Zodiark's shield persevered for a minimum of 12k years, so it would've bought them plenty of time to experiment. 1) is also debatable, because they were not presented with concrete evidence of what was animating her concerns - she constrained what she revealed. I agree with this poster's interpretation of why that belief might've come somewhat a little too easily to her.

Emet described what the sundering did in the demonstration with Ryne: "Two individuals, identical in appearance, yet reduced in all respects. Strength, intelligence, the soul itself - all is halved." Externally they may have looked the same, but they were 1/14 the person they used to be and devoid of their memories.

Also, the sacrifices were never the real issue. Based on the LL, Venat always intended to sunder the Ancients because she believed (her personal opinion, not objective truth) that they were incapable of change or of defeating Meteion. She needed both Zodiark and for the star to be restored, which is why she didn't intervene in those sacrifices. The third one didn't matter in regards to her plan. I don't believe it's explicitly stated, but given that Elidibus had exited Zodiark in an attempt to mediate and Hydaelyn chose to sunder Zodiark at that time it may have been a calculated move on her part. I certainly wouldn't put it past her to have orchestrated the divide in society to allow for such an opening, especially given that her followers in Anyder seem oblivious to her true intent and the subsequent consequences of it.

Agreed - and I believe they may have re-considered that stage until later if presented with good reason to do so - i.e. the evidence about the Plenty and Meteion.

[PawPaw]

Meiton was still out there, so even if life was created anew, what would be different given The Song of Oblivion's presence.

Meteion could literally have her nose pressed up against the Zodiark windshield yelling "hoo hoo!" and she never would have made it past that point.

[Caurcas]

My stance on the Ancients/Ascians and their plight is summed up well by another poster's signature. "Don't Care. Didn't Ask. Plus you're tempered."

[Theodric]

Meteion could literally have her nose pressed up against the Zodiark windshield yelling "hoo hoo!" and she never would have made it past that point.

Yep. Plus if the Ancients were made aware of Meteion's existence...then they could have worked towards finding a solution to the problem. Not only for the sake of their world but all the others that succumbed to Meteion's influence. After all, by withholding the information she had access to Venat is indirectly responsible for the destruction of numerous worlds.

Which makes her decision making process all the more baffling, really. I'm sure we'll soon be subjected to another lecture from Alphinaud about how wrong it is for a character to stand by and do nothing even as other characters suffer. In the usual tone deaf, hypocritical manner where somehow Venat is a 'herois' for doing exactly that.