Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

For fun I did a test with a healer friend of mine where we did the entirety of the lvl90 dungeon,Dead Ends, with me on GNB, them on SGE, with two DPS. I only used Aurora and Heart of Corundum the whole dungeon and my healer still did not have to GCD heal(minus Pneuma or E. Diagnosis for Toxicon procs). I'm sure if I was on WAR I would only need Bloodwhetting, not to mention there are accounts of solo WAR lvl90 dungeon runs.

WAR + 3 DPS is a common tome farming party nowadays.

HP drops low > Bloodwhetting to full > Start cycling cooldown like Rampart plus something else, usually ToB plus Equilibrium > HP drops low again > Bloodwhetting is up, heal self to full again.

In 2nd wall pull just replace rampart with vengeance, add reprisal, arm’s length to the mix. Low blow one of the mob if you will. Equilibrium being 60s means it’ll be up every pulls. BW being 25s means it’s entirely possible to get 2 uses per pull. If needed, Holmgang can also be abused, being the lowest cooldown tank invuln and synergies really well with BW.

The self sustenance is just insane.

Even healing DRK has never been problematic despite all the running gag. Healing them is literally the same as healing a PLD wall pulling in ShB era, if not, easier.

[Deceptus]

The trick now is how do you make jobs fundamentally more of a challenge and more engaging to veteran players without taxing the skill floor and without making more casual/newer players a complete hindrance in a majority of content.

The answer is surprisingly simple:

Put the buttons there. The people who want to use them will use them and the people who don't want to use them . . . won't. They don't already.

If you're in dungeons it doesn't really matter. If you're in higher end content a higher level of play is expected. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

It's like tanks who refuse to use their mitigation buttons in dungeons. Can the run be done? Yes. But if they tried to do that in EX / Savage / Ultimate they'd be immediately kicked from their groups, and for good reason.

The problem still isn't tank sustain though. Say they took away every self-sustaining tanks have this tier. What changes? They can't meme on P1N or old EXs; content that is largely irrelevant in terms of balance. It wouldn't impact a Healer's gameplay. You wouldn't have more to heal in P1N or even P1S if Bloodwhetting didn't exist. We know this because, hilariously, the speed meta is actually double Dark Knight—the tank with zero sustain. What needs to be addressed is the one button spam "rotation" healers have. Taking away tank healing won't accomplish that.
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It will stop them from cheesing current content which in no way should be even remotely close to happening. Re: Old EX's. It doesn't matter what job you're on, they're pretty easy to melt anyway, be it Monk, SMN, or Warrior.

It's all entirely irrelevant for the reasons I stated above. Delete Bloodwhetting, Aurora, Clemency, Corundum and Equilibrium and what happens? Tanks can't solo Normal modes nobody cares about and Healers remain bored spamming Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis because the outgoing damage is still laughable. All you've accomplished in this scenario is reducing tank gameplay and nothing else.

That "Gameplay" is pressing a single button and doing about their normal rotations. Not exactly the most engaging thing.

[Dzian]

Telling people to go play ultimate is a joke anyway..

literally every thing the developers do is so heavily focussed on solo play and not group play a long with all the anti social measures they put in place... from simply being unable to send a tell when your in an instance, to being able to play with friends while doing the story.. "You cannot progress this quest while in a party" even when everyone in the party is on the exact same part of the exact same quest...

All of this kills the social connections and teamwork elements that MMOs were popular for. and as thats why groups of friends, free companies and even static groups always fall apart..

the end result of all this is that when it comes to doing content like ultimates the hardest thing isn't the fight... its getting a group of people together and getting them to stick together, biggest challenge of all..

it's getting worse on all levels though, even doing the msq for end walker. i'd unlock a dungeon queue in with a friend. be polite and say hey guys first time here... and then you get the other 2 people be like wtf?!?!? why havent you done it with your trust??" because its an mmo not a single player game.. i want to play with my friends..

and its this thats makes harder content so difficult. because players never form meaningful bonds or connections just a bunch of superficial stuff.. no different than facebook in that regard. hey mary has 8,000 facebook friends. whys she always so lonely and down....

[StriderShinryu]

The answer is surprisingly simple:

Put the buttons there. The people who want to use them will use them and the people who don't want to use them . . . won't. They don't already.

...

That "Gameplay" is pressing a single button and doing about their normal rotations. Not exactly the most engaging thing.

Very much so, and I think this is something that isn't really considered by a lot of people who just want more healing to be required in all situations. Frankly, the game isn't designed that way. If you really know what you're doing as a healer, and you're doing it in a fight that you (and your team) know well, there really isn't, as I understand it, anything that's going to be super hard to heal simply because of the fight scripting. Once you know when and what you need to heal, you're going to be pressing those same heals at those same times all the time. Even the most tense "oh crap" healer moments are going to boil down to "Use Pre hit shield/regen, Use Heal Skill 1, Use Heal Skill 2, Etc. Go back to DPSing" once you're familiar with the fight.

Because of the way the vast majority of the fights work in FF14, at the end of the day you're always going to have to be more engaged with managing and min-maxing your DPS options. Regardless of how great of a healer you are, you're always going to be put in a position where you're just glare spamming.. so the answer has to be make "glare spamming" more interesting. Unless, of course, you want to change the entire way fights in 14 are designed. Not saying that's an impossible ask, but it's quite a bit less likely to ever happen.

[ForteNightshade]

It will stop them from cheesing current content which in no way should be even remotely close to happening. Re: Old EX's. It doesn't matter what job you're on, they're pretty easy to melt anyway, be it Monk, SMN, or Warrior.

Who cares? Cheesing Normal mode does not matter and never has. It's content intentionally "balanced" to be piss easy. Those solo runs took over an hour (nearly two on PLD, iirc). They're wholly and entirely irrelevant to the healer discussion because it doesn't impact their monotonous gameplay whatsoever. You're still spamming one key even if all tank self sustain disappeared tomorrow. Even the Savage nonsense isn't that big a deal as it was accomplished by 99% players in full BiS.

You're focusing on irrelevant details and missing the bigger picture: Healer "gameplay" is boring. We know they aren't going to increase the outgoing damage, thus our attention should be entirely on our boring one button spammer. This is precisely why the question got lost in translation during the Q&A. A bunch of examples were brought up that were mostly irrelevant or could be dismissed as top tier players doing silly things with BiS gear. The dev team doesn't care whatsoever if a group of 99% players meme on P1S or even E4S when they're 20 ilvls higher than the fights are tuned for. Why? Because the amount of people doing this wouldn't even make up 0.1% of the playerbase. More people have Necromancer than have killed E4S without Healers.

With all that in mind, if we want the devs to do something. The complaints need to be focused on how boring spamming Glare is. Yoshida's comment that prompted this thread shows they aren't interested with increasing damage. So insisting healing is too easy (which it, undeniably, is) will just garner another dismissive response.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Who cares? Cheesing Normal mode does not matter and never has. It's content intentionally "balanced" to be piss easy. Those solo runs took over an hour (nearly two on PLD, iirc). They're wholly and entirely irrelevant to the healer discussion because it doesn't impact their monotonous gameplay whatsoever. You're still spamming one key even if all tank self sustain disappeared tomorrow. Even the Savage nonsense isn't that big a deal as it was accomplished by 99% players in full BiS.

You're focusing on irrelevant details and missing the bigger picture: Healer "gameplay" is boring. We know they aren't going to increase the outgoing damage, thus our attention should be entirely on our boring one button spammer. This is precisely why the question got lost in translation during the Q&A. A bunch of examples were brought up that were mostly irrelevant or could be dismissed as top tier players doing silly things with BiS gear. The dev team doesn't care whatsoever if a group of 99% players meme on P1S or even E4S when they're 20 ilvls higher than the fights are tuned for. Why? Because the amount of people doing this wouldn't even make up 0.1% of the playerbase. More people have Necromancer than have killed E4S without Healers.

With all that in mind, if we want the devs to do something. The complaints need to be focused on how boring spamming Glare is. Yoshida's comment that prompted this thread shows they aren't interested with increasing damage. So insisting healing is too easy (which it, undeniably, is) will just garner another dismissive response.

Pretty much this. I figure Yoshida took the question to mean healing is too easy rather than spamming one button for dps is boring. We need to make sure we give that specific feedback to them to rework healers to give more dps options to keep the class engaging rather than relying on its simple dps button spam. This is what this entire thread has been trying to refer to. Please give more dps buttons. That is all.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Pretty much this. I figure Yoshida took the question to mean healing is too easy rather than spamming one button for dps is boring. We need to make sure we give that specific feedback to them to rework healers to give more dps options to keep the class engaging rather than relying on its simple dps button spam. This is what this entire thread has been trying to refer to. Please give more dps buttons. That is all.

We have given them that specific feedback though. Watch the zepla yoshi p interview during endwalker benchmark. He said they wouldnt add dps options because apparently it would overcomplicate things for the casuals. Aka theye too lazy to give proper in game training tools and instead just dumb everything down.

[Atelier-Bagur]

We have given them that specific feedback though. Watch the zepla yoshi p interview during endwalker benchmark. He said they wouldnt add dps options because apparently it would overcomplicate things for the casuals. Aka theye too lazy to give proper in game training tools and instead just dumb everything down.

Oh!....well damn never mind.

[Ixon]

We have given them that specific feedback though. Watch the zepla yoshi p interview during endwalker benchmark. He said they wouldnt add dps options because apparently it would overcomplicate things for the casuals. Aka theye too lazy to give proper in game training tools and instead just dumb everything down.

Few things. First. The devs aren't "lazy" as more complex rotations for every job have existed in the past. It's not laziness, it's a design choice. You don't have to agree with it, but you just come off as rude when you say it's due to "laziness". Second, it's a no brainer that more dps options would be harder for casuals. Unless you have been not paying attention at all to any game ever, most games that retain any success rate cater to their majority, with their majority being casuals. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who remembers that games are a business, and the majority brings in the money. Third, they have stated in the past that all the devs can do is have an idea of how a job should play in mind, but it's up to the players to figure out what it optimal. Devs of any game in any genre are almost never smarter than their player base(unless their player base is smaller than the dev team). This would make any sort of job tutorial moot if the community discovered a better way to play a job. Not to mention it really isn't hard to just read your tooltips and press your buttons, there is even the Hall of the Novice for the basics.

In the end it's a design choice. It all is. None of has anything to do with the work ethics of the dev team, and Yoshi-P isn't out to crap on healers. They have their reasoning with supporting numbers from a business and player retention standpoint. You don't have to agree with their design choices at all, that's what the forum feedback is for. However, instead of trying to attack the character of the dev team, try listing out the reasons why what you or anybody else wants is better than what currently exists. It's completely understandable that more veteran players are unsatisfied with the state of many jobs or roles being too simple, however most people are providing feedback that would only be a gain for a minority, while hurting the majority, and why would they ever listen to something like that? The OP states they just want "more buttons". What type of buttons? How many? What would you scrap to avoid button bloat? How do you make the extra buttons a non-detriment to casuals? When you add more buttons, slice the damage evenly for the sake of balance, how do you balance it so that the casual player isn't performing half of what they are now? Is this actually beneficial for the majority? Or is this something that only helps a handful of veteran players while preventing more casuals to heal?

[KizuyaKatogami]

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Sigh here we go again. Let me just say off the bat, this isnt some new thing. Healers have been struggling for YEARS to get some improvements done to them. Instead its been downgrade after dowbgrade. People have been specific on what they want, they have constantly given feedback on what they want. The devs refuse to pay it any mind and the constant recent healer changes show this. Yoshi p's recent comment shows this. No one on the devs team plays healer, this is known. It is 100% their fault and is their laziness, im not going to mince words just because someone might get hurt over the truth. They should know, in a game that has the trinity of tanks healers and dps, they should have devs who play each role.When they continue to half ass healers and refuse to give some the buffs they need, yes, its laziness.They can cater to the casuals while still giving medium to expert level players more options. If you had read this entire thread instead of resorting immediately to simping for SE, youd see people have filled this htread with the very things youre asking for.