Job action combos one button

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

It does make the job easier though, the attention you need for where you are in your combo is suddenly freed up entirely.

Not if you have positionals, as said before.

This game's pve combat system is designed around keeping your rotation going, that's where job difficulty comes from. So every part of the rotation that gets automated away makes the job and therefore the game easier.

Job are easier or harder depending on how hard it is to optimize your rotation to the boss, not how hard it is to keep your rotation going, hence why physical ranged are almost always considered easier than hard casters or melees. Every monkey with half a brain can have a perfect rotation on a dummy, given he has the adequate inputs, and inputs do not discriminate better players, they discriminate against people that have disabilites.

What makes a good player isn't their ability to do their rotation, but to adjust to every fight, do mechanics perfectly, and keep uptime. Rotations are the fun part, not the hard part. But, by having bloating issues, you discriminate some players from being able to do their rotation effectively, and thus, from playing at a good level.

Some pages ago, someone said that you could macro different hotbars to have the same input do different skills, but that is not really an option as well, since it's basically like adding an oGCD in your rotation every time you need to swap hotbars, so it makes life harder for those that can't do the same number of input that you do.

All in all, the best way to ensure people with disabilities can play like the rest of us is to give that option to players.

[Saraide]

Not if you have positionals, as said before.



Job are easier or harder depending on how hard it is to optimize your rotation to the boss, not how hard it is to keep your rotation going, hence why physical ranged are almost always considered easier than hard casters or melees. Every monkey with half a brain can have a perfect rotation on a dummy, given he has the adequate inputs, and inputs do not discriminate better players, they discriminate against people that have disabilites.

What makes a good player isn't their ability to do their rotation, but to adjust to every fight, do mechanics perfectly, and keep uptime. Rotations are the fun part, not the hard part. But, by having bloating issues, you discriminate some players from being able to do their rotation effectively, and thus, from playing at a good level.

Some pages ago, someone said that you could macro different hotbars to have the same input do different skills, but that is not really an option as well, since it's basically like adding an oGCD in your rotation every time you need to swap hotbars, so it makes life harder for those that can't do the same number of input that you do.

All in all, the best way to ensure people with disabilities can play like the rest of us is to give that option to players.

Do you have experience with playing with a disability or are you just talking for someone else? Like I said, the option thing is an irrelevant point, options have to be designed around. I dont know how positionals have anything to do with this topic.

Knowing the rotation and being able to execute it are two different things. No small part of that latter depends on how well you know the fight. But that just means the better you are at mechanics the better you become at your rotation and the better you are with your rotation the better you become at mechanics. You can not seperate them. A good player is able to execute their rotation while resolving mechanics.

There is an insanely good player who plays with only one hand (and I think 2 fingers missing on that hand aswell) who has cleared like everything afaik. That guy is a lot better than most people without any disabilities so I'm not convinced that combo collapsing is honestly a disability thing.

[LittleImp]

One button spam is deeply unpopular in the places it already exists in-game. It's one of the most criticized aspects of Healer gameplay, BRD gameplay, and certain solo duties. If anything, I'd like to see them further expand on combos and add more branching combo options to some jobs. On PLD, there are a lot of fight specific combo chains and otherwise interesting ways you can manipulate their rotation due to the way their combos interact.

There is an insanely good player who plays with only one hand (and I think 2 fingers missing on that hand aswell) who has cleared like everything afaik. That guy is a lot better than most people without any disabilities so I'm not convinced that combo collapsing is honestly a disability thing.

There was also a disabled MCH player who used to play the game on controller using his feet, and was able to do his rotation perfectly. This was back when MCH had rng combos.

Rin Karigani recently broke his elbow, and was able to hit 99 percentiles with one hand after a week or so of practice, despite having years of ingrained muscle memory around using both hands.

In my case I actually struggle to play Healers because after awhile the repetition of pressing one button actually causes a lot of pain in my hand.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Like I said, the option thing is an irrelevant point, options have to be designed around.

No, because they are options. I... just don't know how to say it any other way.

I dont know how positionals have anything to do with this topic.

If you have positionals, you can't 1-1-1 mindlessly, so it doesn't make things easier except on the hands.

There is an insanely good player who plays with only one hand (and I think 2 fingers missing on that hand aswell) who has cleared like everything afaik. That guy is a lot better than most people without any disabilities so I'm not convinced that combo collapsing is honestly a disability thing.

There was also a disabled MCH player who used to play the game on controller using his feet, and was able to do his rotation perfectly. This was back when MCH had rng combos.

Rin Karigani recently broke his elbow, and was able to hit 99 percentiles with one hand after a week or so of practice, despite having years of ingrained muscle memory around using both hands.

Sure, disabled people just don't try hard enough.

You should be shameful of saying that sort of things. I'm glad some people can play well with disabilites, but you both are just elitists that use some examples as an excuse to speak shit, and I don't even want to argue with you anymore, you're just despicable.

[Saraide]

No, because they are options. I... just don't know how to say it any other way.



If you have positionals, you can't 1-1-1 mindlessly, so it doesn't make things easier except on the hands.





Sure, disabled people just don't try hard enough.

You should be shameful of saying that sort of things. I'm glad some people can play well with disabilites, but you both are just elitists that use some examples as an excuse to speak shit, and I don't even want to argue with you anymore, you're just despicable.

Are you speaking from experience with disabilities? This isnt the first time this discussion is happening and I always get the impression a lot of people are just trying to speak for people with disabilities without knowing or even caring about the people they are allegedally standing up for.

Every option devs build into the game has to be designed around, that's just how it is. You cant give an option and then pretend it doesnt exist. There are mods that already allow the combo collapsing and iirc it's one of the most downloaded plugins. Do you want to tell me everyone of those people is facing disabilities? Or do they just want to have an easier time with their rotation and their hotbar setup.

yeah, positionals, where to squeeze in an oGCD would still make you pay attention.
But it does get easier. From the ease of pushing 123 to the ease of pushing 111

I'm not saying you wouldnt have to pay attention at all anymore, I'm saying you are automating away the attention you needed to spend on your basic combo. When you have entire burst window happening and at the same time a complicated mechanic to resolve, going back to your regular combo just takes a bit of attention that you just wouldnt need anymore.
Why are you trying to distract with positionals and oGCDs?

[Shirala]

Are you speaking from experience with disabilities? This isnt the first time this discussion is happening and I always get the impression a lot of people are just trying to speak for people with disabilities without knowing or even caring about the people they are allegedally standing up for.

Every option devs build into the game has to be designed around, that's just how it is. You cant give an option and then pretend it doesnt exist. There are mods that already allow the combo collapsing and iirc it's one of the most downloaded plugins. Do you want to tell me everyone of those people is facing disabilities? Or do they just want to have an easier time with their rotation and their hotbar setup.

I am disabled and I think your first post was extremely insulting. Sure, a young healthy guy had an injury and learned to adapt. That says nothing other than the guy was driven to do such a thing.

The devs need to take into consideration people who cannot push a million buttons or have slower reflexes. Make it an option if other folks want to be challenged with the original setup.

[Saraide]

I am disabled and I think your first post was extremely insulting. Sure, a young healthy guy had an injury and learned to adapt. That says nothing other than the guy was driven to do such a thing.

The devs need to take into consideration people who cannot push a million buttons or have slower reflexes. Make it an option if other folks want to be challenged with the original setup.

I'm sorry I came across as insulting to you.

Making it just an option unfortunately doesnt mean anything. It would be something that the game then needs to be designed around as it would very clearly be an intended way of playing the game. There is a little bit of risk involved with playing the original setup that a combo collapse wouldnt face anymore (that's the whole point of it). However that risk isnt just something you alone are facing. This is a team game so by making it an option you're essentially making everyone who doesnt like a bit of an extra risk to the party. Whatever they choose to do, it will always affect everyone playing that job and everyone in the same party as them.

This is my first post in this thread btw:

Two things:

I think there are better ways to adress the button bloat that does exist on some jobs as it doesnt even affect a lot of jobs, stuff like undraw.

Remembering where you are in your combo takes a bit of attention that collapsing all combos into one button would automate away. Sure, no one is gonna miss a combo action when attacking a target dummy. But when something like firestorms together with your burst window is going on things might look a bit different. And keep in mind jobs balance is done for the harder content in the game. If you drift like a madman on a dungeon boss, why do you even care.

I do find it weird that some people act like collapsing combos is such a huge deal in terms of reducing button bloat but at the same time act like it's no big deal at all whenever they face pushback against the idea.

How is that insulting? My very first point was essentially agreeing that there is button bloat and that it can be solved. I just dont think combo collapse is the correct approach.

What actually takes effort, for people with or without disability alike, is setting up your hotbars in a way that works for you. A lot of people dont want to spend that effort and rarely can you make someone else do your hotbars for you because that's a highly personal thing.

[hagare]

Are you speaking from experience with disabilities? This isnt the first time this discussion is happening and I always get the impression a lot of people are just trying to speak for people with disabilities without knowing or even caring about the people they are allegedally standing up for.

Every option devs build into the game has to be designed around, that's just how it is. You cant give an option and then pretend it doesnt exist. There are mods that already allow the combo collapsing and iirc it's one of the most downloaded plugins. Do you want to tell me everyone of those people is facing disabilities? Or do they just want to have an easier time with their rotation and their hotbar setup.



I'm not saying you wouldnt have to pay attention at all anymore, I'm saying you are automating away the attention you needed to spend on your basic combo. When you have entire burst window happening and at the same time a complicated mechanic to resolve, going back to your regular combo just takes a bit of attention that you just wouldnt need anymore.
Why are you trying to distract with positionals and oGCDs?

positionals and oGCDs are disctractions?
They're part of your core rotation. You don't just press your 3 main combo ya know.
Seems like people who object to this change think that your main combo exists in a vacuum. *shrug*

[Saraide]

positionals and oGCDs are disctractions?
They're part of your core rotation. You don't just press your 3 main combo ya know.
Seems like people who object to this change think that your main combo exists in a vacuum. *shrug*

Why are you bringing up oGCDs and positionals in the first place is my question.

[Shurrikhan]

Where did I claim it automates the entire rotation?

I never said you did. I said you claimed it automates away the attention needed for following one's GCD combo(s). Which you did, right here:

I'm saying you are automating away the attention you needed to spend on your basic combo.

_______________

Not a lot of GCDs even have positionals at this point and only on SAM do they actually matter for resources.

SAM doesn't generate resources from positionals anymore, but that's irrelevant anyways; potency is potency. Previously, those 5 Kenki were worth ~64 potency. Now, as direct potency, they're worth a straight 60.

Resource management has you pay attention to your resources mostly not really your combo steps.

Let's consider, then, the most 'stupidly simple' combo in the game -- DRK's.

It wants to bank for burst; any resource explited outside of burst is a potency loss.
Every 2nd step in combo, though, risks overcapping MP. Every 3rd step in combo risks overcapping Gauge.

That's a fair bit of resource interaction in that combo, no?