What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Brinne]

On a side note, Hermes' development while it might not be rational/logical from the point of view of a sane mind is still understandable, because his emotions devoured him until nihilism. When emotions are unchecked the way it is with him, they are hardly ever rational. He sunk deeper and deeper and I do understand it, the same way I understand Zenos is actually interesting as a product of his environment.

Hermes and Zenos in relation to one another are so interesting in a way that leaves Venat completely out of the thematic spectrum, hilariously. Hermes's fundamental problem - both its origin point and his choice to continue wallowing in it until it broke him into something steeped in poison - was isolation. He believed he was isolated, and his attachment to his self-image as The Only One Struggling With Empathy meant that he, subconsciously or otherwise, kept himself isolated, which cycled into his despair and led him to viewing his society and world with contempt that eventually spiraled out of control. Emet makes some (clumsy, admittedly) attempts to reach a hand out to him in Elpis, but Hermes reacts with raw hostility, because on some level, he doesn't want help from people who "don't get it," so to speak.

Zenos is positioned in a similar way - the difference is, while Zenos is also a thoroughly Terrible person, he recognizes his struggle with isolation and rejection from the person he longs to connect with and is willing to re-evaluate himself and his approach, and then start to do the work to amend them. He doesn't fundamentally change himself - he's Zenos through and through to the end, callous war criminal extraordinaire - but he learns, after genuine self-reflection without the accompanying agenda of wallowing in self-pity, to better meet the WoL on their own terms. He recognizes that while there are vast areas of the WoL's person that he will never understand and honestly isn't interested in understanding. He will never "get it," but that doesn't mean he can't recognize them and support them in his own, deadpan dragon sort of way. Zenos, of all people, learns to actually connect with another human being, and this revelation ultimately saves the universe. It's the lesson that Hermes never figured out, even as Meteion worries about him until the end, hoping desperately for his happiness.

Fundamentally, Hermes's speech to the fire wolf was very telling. His empathy and pain at having to put the creature down was sincere and real, but he urges it to "hate, if it be your wont - we are not undeserving" specifically. Hermes is distraught over the way the creations are discarded in large part because he projects himself onto them. And deep down, he has begun to hate. Zenos, for all his massive, massive flaws and crimes, does not actually hate. He'll murder you and look down upon you, but he doesn't hate you. He is driven by love, as twisted and weird and unsettling as it might be, and there is a sincerity in it that allowed him to self-reflect, have an epiphany, and then transform into a giant space dragon after eating a big rock.

In that way, love, support, and connections emerge as the answer to despair, not engineering an environment of suffering to force people through until they just get used to living through it. (Well, a few of them, anyway. Most of them probably just die but, yes, anyway, light everlasting and all that.) That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

There really is some fantastic stuff in Endwalker, I think. I really do. Just, Venat and her albatross of "we must establish she is Likable and a Good Person at all costs." Oof. (Not going to lie, it's maybe a breath of fresh air to talk about the things I actually loved about Endwalker? Maybe the wrong thread, though, so excuse me for the weird tangent!)

[Kyohei]

Hermes and Zenos in relation to one another are so interesting in a way that leaves Venat completely out of the thematic spectrum, hilariously. Hermes's fundamental problem - both its origin point and his choice to continue wallowing in it until it broke him into something steeped in poison - was isolation. He believed he was isolated, and his attachment to his self-image as The Only One Struggling With Empathy meant that he, subconsciously or otherwise, kept himself isolated, which cycled into his despair and led him to viewing his society and world with contempt that eventually spiraled out of control. Emet makes some (clumsy, admittedly) attempts to reach a hand out to him in Elpis, but Hermes reacts with raw hostility, because on some level, he doesn't want help from people who "don't get it," so to speak.
...

There really is some fantastic stuff in Endwalker, I think. I really do. Just, Venat and her albatross of "we must establish she is Likable and a Good Person at all costs." Oof. (Not going to lie, it's maybe a breath of fresh air to talk about the things I actually loved about Endwalker? Maybe the wrong thread, though, so excuse me for the weird tangent!)

That's beautifully said.

One thing I thought after the story is Hermes wasn't mature enough emotionally to occupy his office. His natural tendencies to let's say it really, depression and how he alienated himself from other ancients were overlooked by the mentor who passed the reign onto him. He especially was a poor choice to occupy a function such as overlooking creations in Elpis and making decisions about their fate. Akin to the reason a surgeon should not operate on a family member, he should not have been overseeing creations as he was too emotionally impacted by it.
While it could have been a strength because this would encourage him to to his duty carefully, it was also a weakness and we see why.

[Lauront]

I think Emet-Selch's hope was that he'd be able to put his brilliance, such as it was, to better use in the Convocation, away from Elpis, but by the end of it, he realised the guy is completely unfit to hold such office. He could've used his office to advocate his approach to the other ancients - instead, he chose to doom the entire universe, including his supposedly beloved creations.

Fundamentally, Hermes's speech to the fire wolf was very telling. His empathy and pain at having to put the creature down was sincere and real, but he urges it to "hate, if it be your wont - we are not undeserving" specifically. Hermes is distraught over the way the creations are discarded in large part because he projects himself onto them. And deep down, he has begun to hate. Zenos, for all his massive, massive flaws and crimes, does not actually hate. He'll murder you and look down upon you, but he doesn't hate you. He is driven by love, as twisted and weird and unsettling as it might be, and there is a sincerity in it that allowed him to self-reflect, have an epiphany, and then transform into a giant space dragon after eating a big rock.

In that way, love, support, and connections emerge as the answer to despair, not engineering an environment of suffering to force people through until they just get used to living through it. (Well, a few of them, anyway. Most of them probably just die but, yes, anyway, light everlasting and all that.) That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

In Zenos's case, it's just a pity that his way of expressing that love left him more or less alienated by the end, but yes it was essentially a redemption arc of a sort that kept with his character, even if his philosophical outlook is one the Scions trenchantly reject. Although now that you put it that way, I agree that it's Hermes who in fact ended up living out the philosophy he was exhorting the feral lykaones to adopt - which also opened Emet-Selch's eyes to how poor a fit he was for where he worked. I suspect Hermes was good up to that point at cloaking his true character; at most seen as a bit eccentric.

We saw both through Emet-Selch indulging Hermes's requests (as do many other researchers, frankly) and the Elpis sidequests that 1) the ancients had a very broad array of personalities; 2) some shared Hermes's empathy towards the creations (just not to the same unrealistic, ridiculous degree) and 3) they were quite open to change where they saw the positives in it. They have many of the same anxieties and feelings as do regular humans, and I don't think it's an accident that by the end of one of the sidequests, you're given three options on how to say you perceive them: as gods, as not too different, and as fundamentally inscrutable. I think given their unique mix of traits, there is truth to all three.

[Kyohei]

This questline along with the siblings really put the main narrative in a bad spot by specifically showing how ancients were eager to learn and adopt new ways of thinking.
The sibling one showing as you said that they did have empathy toward creations contrary to what Hermes thought. Proving further he was so self absorbed he failed to see how others thought.

[Brinne]

In Zenos's case, it's just a pity that his way of expressing that love left him more or less alienated by the end, but yes it was essentially a redemption arc of a sort that kept with his character, even if his philosophical outlook is one the Scions trenchantly reject.

I'm largely paraphrasing a friend here when we discussed this together, but Zenos, even after all is said and done, even after he he personally was able to evolve the expression and direction of his love in a way that frankly, considering Zenos, could be considered a miracle - and through that, finally achieving what he had been dreaming of since he came back to life in Stormblood - still being left at the edge of the universe, uncertain, questioning if it was all worth it - asking you if you felt it was all worth it - also felt like a poignant and vulnerable expression of the other half of Endwalker's themes: the blunt lack of certainty and lack of objective answers to meaning in the universe. There's no certainty or locked-down answer even after defeating the embodiment of despair with your giant theme music-bearing dragon friend. And how you felt about that is something largely left in your own hands, private and personal.

(And yet at the very, very end, the existence of that love was still re-asserted through the implication he may have been the one responsible to teleporting you back to the ship, too.)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Zenos was hands down the best part of Endwalker and the most successful execution of its themes in all regards. Anyone who hated him after this expansion is wrong, objectively wrong!

[KizuyaKatogami]

I'm largely paraphrasing a friend here when we discussed this together, but Zenos, even after all is said and done, even after he he personally was able to evolve the expression and direction of his love in a way that frankly, considering Zenos, could be considered a miracle - and through that, finally achieving what he had been dreaming of since he came back to life in Stormblood - still being left at the edge of the universe, uncertain, questioning if it was all worth it - asking you if you felt it was all worth it - also felt like a poignant and vulnerable expression of the other half of Endwalker's themes: the blunt lack of certainty and lack of objective answers to meaning in the universe. There's no certainty or locked-down answer even after defeating the embodiment of despair with your giant theme music-bearing dragon friend. And how you felt about that is something largely left in your own hands, private and personal.

(And yet at the very, very end, the existence of that love was still re-asserted through the implication he may have been the one responsible to teleporting you back to the ship, too.)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Zenos was hands down the best part of Endwalker and the most successful execution of its themes in all regards. Anyone who hated him after this expansion is wrong, objectively wrong!

I’ll be the objectively wrong one here (for once) and say i didn’t enjoy Zenos all that much but i’ll admit it’s mainly due to my bias of them having him kill off Varis whom i found so much more interesting and also outliving Elidibus lol.

[Kolsykol]

Just, Venat and her albatross of "we must establish she is Likable and a Good Person at all costs." Oof. (Not going to lie, it's maybe a breath of fresh air to talk about the things I actually loved about Endwalker? Maybe the wrong thread, though, so excuse me for the weird tangent!)

They didn't really have much time to develop her, and ultimately they can't rly give all that much autonomy to the player in this regard ( what the WoL thinks of characters ).
Imo I think they did a great job with her, I don't necessarily agree with her methods but I mean ultimately they kinda have to take a stance and just go with it in an expansion like this.
It's not like with Emet where he's around for one and a half exp following you around etc.

SWTOR did a really good job at giving the player a ton of autonomy, to the point you can actually kill companions or have them abandon you and they're just gone and your choices actually do matter a fair bit ( dunno about recent expansions tho, this is my memory of the base game ).
But FFXIV is pretty on rails and the WoL has an established personality and view of the characters.
Your choices are mostly just fluff that doesn't change anything and tbh a lot of the dialogue choices simply don't make sense for who the WoL clearly is.
The douchebaggy ones in particular it's pretty clear that the WoL is basically a saint ( even tho we've done questionable things in the past ).

You did get some options to question Hydaelyn but in the end of the day I don't think this exp was the time to start getting too complicated with characters like Venat.
And on some level it also needs to make some sense why people would flock to her against the convocation.
I think they did a really good job with making her have a great presence, she kinda had this larger than life saintly presence and it made a lot of sense imo.

[KageTokage]

You did get some options to question Hydaelyn but in the end of the day I don't think this exp was the time to start getting too complicated with characters like Venat.

The problem is that things did get complicated by tossing Venat/Hydaelyn into a causal loop that retroactively makes her directly or indirectly responsible for far more then just the Sundering.

The initially suggested reasons for the Sundering (Zodiark being a flawed solution to the Final Days and some Ancients wanting to preserve the lives that were be sacrificed to him) could've simply been fleshed out, but instead they opted to take a totally different angle and made it seem more like she was more opposed to the actual act of reviving the lost Ancients then the consequences and costs of it.

It essentially shifted her motives to being driven more by ideals then morals and while you can argue that she was a prisoner to fate who had no choice but to let bad things play out as we said they would, it still left me feeling uneasy in ways that the alternative wouldn't have.