Squadrons are dead? Long live Squadrons? Suggestion for Squadrons given trust changes

[Shougun]

// TL;DR//:
My desire for something that is akin to very fancy beast tribe-like mechanics with a military group focus, allowing trusts room to breathe and do whatever they want for MSQ and not interfere with squadrons

OR

Please either keep and or make new progression mechanics if combining and marrying trust and squadron systems. I enjoyed my squadrons once set up (all offensive squadron with the right jobs makes trusts seem like wet noodles), and it would be a bit sad to have the two systems combined together just so my squadrons can dodge AoEs but are effectively 1/4 as strong as before and generally less interesting to customize / earn.

The rest below is just suggestions and thoughts, my primary goal could be read in the above or very end. Your desire for trusts, squadrons, etc, welcome. May even unrelate a bit and be like "I wish I can play with Cid" lol. Are you going to miss squadrons? Did you try them? I noticed some people tried them initially but because of their awful AI never got to the point where they were actually useful, was that you?

// Context for thread:

From the recent live letter we know that trusts are coming to all of the MSQ and we also recently have:

When the Trust system updates are completed he plans to retire the Squadron system [EDIT: apologies, my wording should have been more precise here, the exact quote is that the squadron system will be "replaced and unified" with trusts - JP quote 全てのフェイス対応が終わったタイミングでフェイスと同一のシステムに置き換えてしまった方がいいと思っています]. Since people have got attached to their squadron members, there may be some form of compensation.

Source

This does mean as more details are revealed in the future feelings may change. Depending on how different our understanding is, I might just start an entirely new thread lol. Might be "please ignore that one, I love the changes" or maybe not. Just keep in mind we are still in the unknown in many ways.

// General thought:

Idea of trust being brought back to old content is absolutely no problem and I'm sure will be a great aid for first time experiences as a "FF" type game, just hoping squadrons don't meet some shameful end without at least impacting the content that gobbles it up in a more valuable manner.

Now the massive wall of text version with ideas / suggestions (not important to me it's exactly a particular way, just that my worry / concerns also come with effort of ideas), etc:

// If trusts and squadrons might live separately:

I believe squadrons concept could be moved far more into what they are in terms of lore- a group of people under the banner of the grand company. In this you have missions you can do at a warmap that include things like defending a nearby hamlet (small village), outpost, bringing resources and actually constructing outposts (longer term project, multiple missions), entering dungeons you've already done according to lore / MSQ progress - with new enemy layouts (and maybe sometimes different paths / locations in the same content), chocobo caravans, grand company leves and other relationship building systems.

Basically what you'd think a squadron would actually be doing rather than what they do currently which is for the most part 'wim of the player'.

I think you could also take some inspiration from Dynasty Warrior or Shadow Of Mordor (lord of the rings assassins creed like game) with it's nemesis system (I know there is a patent for the nemesis system, and I've read SE has two patents of some vaguely similar nature for some mobile games so... uh.. go see if you can use that stuff lol).

By the above inspiration I mean you might go into the dungeon and it's swarming with fairly weak monsters and your team is just absolutely obliterating them in a sort of damage and numbers visual spectacle that makes your squadron feel like a beast of warriors (and lore wise it's fine because it's no longer the epic stuff that 'was' there, also when you go in can be later than when you did in MSQ). Of course when you reach the main fight areas there should still be mini-boss trash or boss type moments. That's the dynasty part (only vague reference but that's all I meant, and it doesn't need to be at all times.. just a decent opportunity to give the players something different than they're used to).

The Nemesis system reference I purely mean that your warmap will have foes appear and grow in strength and move about. It can be more detailed with whole if you lose / win type stuff, but keeping in mind you don't want to get too similar since that system is patented.

I believe it's important to give players places they can 'rest easy'. So like if they start building an outpost the area on the map will be contention by the nearby beast tribe or just nearby monsters. You might have to defend it here and there, brining resources over time. The time to respond to negative incidents should be fairly generous. Once you reach certain thresholds they should be locked in. There may be other options too in order to let players choose how they want to rest without feeling obligated to baby sit the system. For example you might get a mechanic or item that allows you to challenge the stronghold but it causes them to attack your 'locked in' places as well, so you're asking for it in a way. But for a player who takes a break for 3 months doesn't come back to everything being level 0 and all their work done.

Opportunity to change the game space itself, like upgrading the hamlet's and outposts in the game by doing actual content, opportunity to fight in the field (can have actual large scale fights in the world map, even if it might technically be 'phased'), opportunity to revisit dungeons in a different light without too much pressure on the devs to have to redesign the entire space, logic to the squadron lore concept.

Growth within this mechanic unlocking new options not only for your squadron but also for yourself.

For example you might come across a stream in a dungeon via MSQ and then the squdaron is taking you back there because you're learning lore about this mountain stream that cuts through underground and is somehow a sort of 'spiritbound' water that can be used for crafting. You go with your squadron and have to unlock on the world map trade paths that lead to outposts, so then you can make an expedition into the dungeon with your team, you clear out the area creating an outpost in the actual dungeon (that you can visit later maybe), and there may even be resource allocation mechanics so you then might allocate chocobos / miners / crafters / etc to the location. This spiritbound water unlocks new upgrades for your squadron, but also new armors to buy from your GC supplier, AND new crafting materials.

Might see the GC area reimagined so that you can expand it, customize it- like a forge of great heat from special fire crystals you find in one of the game's lava dungeon spaces. You spend some points and upgrade your GC space and you've this craft area with a nice buff to smith crafting and a passive % bonus to your squadron stats.

Lots of potential ideas. WoW's garrison might add some inspiration to this, though I'm sure Island Sanctuary is going to have a lot of elements inspired too. It is important to avoid the issues that made Garrisons difficult though.. for the warmap idea here it would be best that missions are largely fun content ran by you AND your squadron and not particularly a retainer quest. If there are retainer quests they should be slow enough that players are not encouraged to AFK at the table so they can send them off every hour or something. Printing gil from thin air also being a concern (though being able to purchase and then sell stuff valuables on the MW is fine).

Two tangents from this-

Minor one first, if Island Sanctuary has building placing mechanics one might see being able to place a Garrison building down and then you can load into your Garrison via a shared door like FFXI mog flower girl quest or Howel's Moving Castle Magical door. It doesn't really have to be a building, like Howel's system it might be a door alone lol. It would be particularly neat if there was no loading though and you could walk into your Garrison. Similar idea I had for apartments and inn rooms for the island sanctuary. Let players link an inn room of choice and or their apartment so they can have a 'room' in their island sanctuary. Using the door as a loading point (Howel moving Castle like) if having it load as an open building is unrealistic.

Second one- I mentioned Hamlet Defense. This is a concept people from 1.0 are probably familiar with. The general idea being you go to a hamlet and get to defend it against waves of monsters, meanwhile DoH / DoL have some purpose as well like crafting buffs for players.

For squadrons it would be more like defending actual places in the game, like the Ala Mhigo Resistance camp might be one.. BUT some of those systems and ideas might be repurpose-able into a larger system I think could be fun. So if Island Sanctuary does well, and I hope it does, something that could be fun for FC is Hamlet Defense content but here in you get to make the hamlet as a FC.

So while Island Sanctuary is more peaceful, relaxing, personal, farm.. etc.. Hamlet would be the industrial counterpart to that.

Dark Cloud, much closer to Wow Garrisons, a weird Tower Defense, etc. Building up a small city and protecting it as a FC. The reputation tab that is currently pretty useless in FFXIV's FCs could now be useful as the FC unlocks partnerships with different cities, tribes, and important npc / factions (like Garlond Ironworks). Building shops, upgrading them to be multifloored, bazaars maybe even, assigning different NPCs to these structures for different bonuses, upgrading the defenses, choices of course in general theme designs (some decorating, maybe also a small budget of furnishings), and of course the defenses. I mention this so that some of the mechanics used for fights in the squadron system may be re-used for FC hamlet defenses. Of course only a few would probably be.. most would be entirely new lol XD.

Beast tribes attacking your hamlet occasionally and FC having to get together to defend, the cost for losing not being much but winning could be a great way to gain a lot of points to upgrade the hamlet further but also be like reward for tomestones and other 'always current' rewards. Another fun twist might be FC getting to do FC vs FC content where you might get to siege a hamlet, or defend, and maybe given a smart system even have the two hamlets put into a conflicting void where both are on the same map as a sort of basic DotA / LoL / HotS / AoS type thing (remember the content is filled with npcs too from your treaties / arrangements with other factions, so you could literally have that if you really wanted lol). Of course the PvP shouldn't be forced or feel required, but just a side fun thing (rewards can still be pretty great, just not feel forced activity for those who don't want to). PvP part might dillute the other PvP content though so that's dangerous- maybe loads of fun, maybe just brings down all of PvP. I'm more sold that it would be fun as a FC to defend your stuff against beast tribe strongholds- like the FFXI besieged content too.

// If trusts gobble up squadrons I hope they gain some sort of progression system, that isn't a level gate mechanic:

I just hope that if that is the case that trusts gain some sort of new system that makes them more interesting to work with and use past the first time. Personally I use trusts first and it's quite nice / fun, then I think I'll probably never use them again because they're so slow and there isn't really anything to improve on them either. With the exception of if I want to afk a few times through the content, then I will use a trust because doing that to a live party is obviously not okay lol.

So here, maybe if trusts eat squadrons I'd simply ask that SE consider some sort of mechanics that are not strictly level based gates (as trusts WERE, not really anymore). There are a variety of things you could do here from really grand systems to pretty simple. Simple is fairly obvious so shortly on larger scheme ideas:

The grand suggestion might be thinking more akin to bioware / bethesda companion systems. Because of the avatar concept, which they can hide if it hurts people's immersion (but the 'lore' is they're avatars when using them in ways that are not possible- helps if they end up killing someone . . . lol).. allows SE to let you develop the character even if they're gone. No Aerith problems.. Heheh. Each permanent trust member getting little quests, companion affinities, their own unique skill trees, etc.

You'd "level" them up by doing stuff with them but this simply unlocks new skills or AI interactions, some of which might be toggle or "either or, but not both". Tia might have the option to learn a hyper powerful AoE CC debuff break skill, or alternatively a long cooldown party benediction. Quests could be done to unlock certain points in their skill trees, so like semi-Flow related super skills may unlock to Y'shtola after she learns to use it. Anyway, every companion is a companion basically... non-important trust members that come and go would just be temporary and non-customizable. Unlock AoE attacks, change AI priority or improvements (like less using limit break to your own demise lol), maybe potion usage by upgrade some equipment concept.

I think it's important to avoid the level concept though, and in fact SE may as well just remove it from the system. Trust don't have levels at all- they just come at whatever level you're at. There is no level gating, but simply investing for notice-able but not entirely balance defying opportunities. If a fast group does content in 8 minutes, default trust does content in 25 minutes, a well progressed trust group might do the content in 12. You can have a generic charisma like system that improves them all at once... but I think it would be more fun if you were encouraged to use them all and progress each one uniquely with their own special growths. In fact the growth styles might differ, different tree shapes, more quest focused, equipment, etc. Another suggestion to those ideas of growth is that perhaps unlocking a certain point in one trust member adds a passive or passive option to the entire group even when they're not present. Like Thancred at X point lets you slot in a passive when you do content that gives everyone a medkit healing them when their hp is critical and giving a temporary buff to stats.

// End //


Not really tl;dr, as that's above, but reiteration of my reasons for this plainly is that I feel the squadron progression system had problems but was fun and could have been improved (certain jobs were useless, comparatively, there was usually little reason to run certain tactics, etc - but collecting them all, and then even the chemistries, made it felt like a great start that might have amounted to a lot of neat systems if improved and continued). Meanwhile the trust progression is non-existent (and "was" just a level-gate, which I felt was bad, and they did change which I appreciate they took the feedback!!) meanwhile trusts also feel substantially, imo, weaker than my squadron when I run my squadron with max power.

I know my squadron is about as smart as bag of coke but... it felt nice that they were so impactful. Running trusts just makes me miss that I could upgrade my squadron. Certainly squadron also starts out slow too but it had that growth vibe. I think it's fine trusts start out so slow, and I believe it's okay to try and make sure the trust doesn't go faster than a good group... but I'd hope you could make them go faster than a bog-standard group if you tried.

Which brings me to the other point of contention I have if trust purely gobbles up squadrons. Currently trusts will modify their damage based on your performance, if you're going slow they'll do more to try and make a certain time and if you go too fast they'll not do as well ... to again meet that certain time. It makes me not want to care about playing well, sometimes at all lol. Just watching something on my other screen because meh whatever trusts will correct themselves if I play well, and if I play poorly they'll do the same. I didn't really feel that with squadrons, and I felt like "so glad I leveled these guys up" back when I needed them (because max power squadron is insanely strong lol).

The idea the story part of trusts coming in and stepping out of squadrons is fine, I think it will make the story better!

But please consider ideas like moving squadrons to military focused (Grand Company) content and evolving their power, and or (and would be nice lol) consider giving trusts either a fun growth mechanic of value or at least taking away the "auto-balancing" nature of trusts in favor of the player. In favor meaning take trusts at their best, or near best, and that's the base line and they don't really play worse except maybe for funny lore friendly actions (like reckless LB), so then if you as a player play better it doesn't feel like the rest of the group is going to purposefully start slacking.

My preference is to a growth mechanic though because I'd think its fun to start at some not so great run times but be able to get them down to "pretty good". I just like growing stuff in general. Give me a bunch of upgrades, that are reasonably achievable*, and I'm like dog after a hundred squirrels in a park *(hyper-meme-grinds = maybe I should be playing a game that respects my time more, it's not like there are no other quality made games).

I know there is a lot of caution in touching stuff that might affect the DF and that I respect, but those are my feelings at least - current trusts are fun as a one time but I feel are okay there-after unless I plan to afk on them (if I intentionally want to play poorly basically), meanwhile I felt squadrons made me want to invest in them and also didn't make me feel encouraged to play poorly (though I 'could' if I wanted lol). So hearing trusts might eat squadrons makes me think "oh no, now I don't want to invest in the whole concept... bummer". I'll will absolutely still use them once for sure (I've used trusts once per content since they were added, every time), I like the story implications a lot! Past that though... probably mostly collect dust (unlike squadrons which I used quite a bit, and was sometimes wondering if they'd get an update so I wanted to use them again).

As a final aside Chocobo companion, besides just updating it (doesn't it still have accuracy bonuses....?........ lol...), maybe new job trees and smoother experience growth (FF Tactics system could be fun ), I'd love to be able to consider either bringing them in as a trust or squadron content or both lol (depending on if SE decides to not kill squadrons). Related thread to that desire: here.

[Aglaica]

this is so much nicer than i could ever have formed into words. I worked so hard for my squadron, i know im relatively new player, only started in june 2021, but i really would enjoy a trust system that utilizes the small roegadyn army I have amassed and it would be a breather from the lore characters of the trust system. not that they are bad characters, just sometimes you get a bit tired of seeing the lore people...and want just simple squadron members.

[Shibi]

As pointed out in that reddit thread, their translation was quite bad.

From the same reddit thread was this enhancement.

Here is the same interview with a revised/formal version on dengekionline. The words used in this formal version are much clear. So please check it out. https://dengekionline.com/articles/119882/

The following section is where the squadrons are mentioned: ――メインIDのフェイス対応に関連して、冒険者小隊の扱いがどうなっていくかもお聞かせください。

Here's a quick translation (sorry for poor English):

"Just like I mentioned in the PLL before, the AI of the Squadrons is totally different from the AI of the Trusts. Lets say that we want to update the Squadrons, then we will have to update the MSQ and ID/Dungeons at the same time (to make them also being able to run smoothly by the Squadrons AI)."

"Furthermore, I think that if we want to further develop the Squadrons system, its better for us to make them have the same (AI) system as the Trusts. Some people might be really looking forward (for the Squadrons updates), but the Squadrons updates will be paused until then (after they have the same AI system as the Trust). (For this reason,) We might give out compensation."

"If we continue to update the Squadrons system (without updating its AI), it will be vastly different (in an inferior way) from the Trusts system. When the players are getting used to the (advanced) Trusts system and Story Support features, it would be very stressful (to make the Squadrons as good as them). In order to make the Squadrons and Trust system together (e.g. use the same AI), and by considering the cost of AI development, I think it would be better to spend our resources (to make Trusts system's AI run) on the MSQ and ID/Dungeons first."

Meaning, no change to squad for a very long time. Well after the trusts are done.

The rest, sorry, it was too long for me, I have a bad attention span. My apologies for not reading it.

[Momo_Kozuki]

I feel Squadron's dungeon-running side will be nuked and has its related achievement compromise into something else.



The rest will stay cuz they are just clicking around an UI for some minor management mini-game.


Best solution is to leave the current system alone cuz honestly, I don't see how they conflict each other. Squadron requires investment and has worse AI (unless they merge Trust AI into Squadron member too), but it has much better performance due to Tactic damage boost. Trust is just on-the-go solution for people who hates queue time or have grouping anxiety. At least until SE knows what to do with squadron.

[Shougun]

As pointed out in that reddit thread, their translation was quite bad.

From the same reddit thread was this enhancement.



Meaning, no change to squad for a very long time. Well after the trusts are done.

The rest, sorry, it was too long for me, I have a bad attention span. My apologies for not reading it.

When I go on for days I expect most to not read it, I still have fun though and as long as it is on a general topic I still enjoy reading replies. Your info is helpful to the thread at large, don't be sorry. Maybe annoying if someone came to offer nothing but "lol didn't read" but you did no such thing.

Will edit reply to others in a bit, after my too full to jog walk

[Shibi]

Having a bad attention span is the pits, thanks for underst....

Oooo look, a Shiny! Runs off, completely forgetting where I was.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

Oooo look, a Shiny! Runs off, completely forgetting where I was.

....Are you certain you're not a skritt?

[Gemina]

Having a bad attention span is the pits, thanks for underst....

Oooo look, a Shiny! Runs off, completely forgetting where I was.

That's basically me in a nutshell.

*WoL uses imbued saber*
"Fire, fire, fire, fire, fire, fire. He imbued with fire. Fire, fire, fire, fire, fire. FIRE!"

*By the time WoL releases the element*
"What was it again? I think it was thunder!"


Anywho, OP. I can certainly sympathize. My squadron are maxed, and can't progress any further unless I fire one of them, and start another fresh. Not much reason to do that though. I wish they could have done more to give them personalities, and truly make you feel like the captain of them.

Like the devs though, I have basically abandoned them in favor of the trust system. When squads were first implemented, I was doing much less in the game than I am now. I just would not be able to give the content the attention it deserves without giving up some of my other activities, and I would imagine this is the case for a lot of players. For the players that do have the time, I don't want to give any kind of false hope for the squad based off of Yoshi's comments. But at the very least content like them and companions are there in case they do decide to build on them someday.

[technole]

Considering squadrons initially added an LB exploit in the game, which people did get a ban for. Plus with trusts being way smarter AI, it wasn't a hard decision to can further development that was obvious where they were going. They can do more fun things to further increase GC level as well instead of playing dungeon baby sitter and jackpot adventure chances.

[Faafetai]

Are they removing squadrons or do we just get an update to their ai so we do not have to control them around? I really enjoyed building my squad and put a ton of work into them to find out this was abandoned content. I did like that the rank ended on captain though, the other ones in the list I remember being very weird sounding and wished to just be a captain. If there is way to just keep the squad please don't take them away if anything just leave it be as side content. I would rather it be left alone than taken away.

From a story point being able to see the scions doing things rather than them making you literally do everything would be nice, so if that is what is being done that is great, but if we are getting 3 'adventurer friends' with trust ai at some point it would make no sense to not just use what you already have within the game. (something something spaghetti code we can't do something) Well just leave it in if it will be too much trouble, you would think removing something would disrupt the same system that prevents simple quality of life things from being added. (That however is a topic for another time)

In short please square do not touch it if you are going to ruin it or remove it entirely unless you can give ever person their time back or something equal to their time put in to this system. Look I just really like the idea of having my own squad, you can customize them and everything, and be a captain of the grand company, they even state as much when you speak with your respected grand company. I know it has been abandoned but it would stink if it were removed and just be depressing.