"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[ZephyrMenodora]

Squadron AI is not on the level of Trust AI. You can easily make Thancred do multiple packs at a time and he survives easily, likely because he makes use of cooldowns which is a standing pillar of tank gameplay in order to reduce incoming damage. This is something easily seen and picked up on in the levelling process. It makes logical sense for the "shield" of the party to reduce damage to make surviving easier. If you don't want to do this, then the tank role is not suitable for your style of gameplay.

The typical roulette experience is a smooth less than 20 minutes run with mininum 2 packs per pull. If I find that a party is unable to meet this standard beyond level 50, I leave the instance. If you cannot respect my time by performing at least at the level of Trust characters then I have no reason to remain.

Just a reminder that Thancred does not actually pull anything. He'll aggro something if the mobs aggro because he'll stand 2 steps in front of you, but he doesn't lead and pull. Great that he will if you as a DPS or Healer does the pulling, but he teaches the actual tank player only how to react to pulls someone else did. Thanks.

Precisely. Rather than getting upset or starting arguments, Thancred performs his role without causing any unnecessary issues. He aoes, uses a cooldown, and the run continues. Thank you for your acknowledgement of this.

We are in agreement here. A tank should be picking up things others pull to him or her, rather than causing a scene or letting people die. It was an interesting read to see people agree with "You Pull You Tank." I personally don't find it productive or considerate if the puller is trying to help, and not trying to cause wipes.

[Kolaina]

Except that is now how the rule works. Your GM statement does not even address the issue that IS clearly addressed in the prohibited activities document.

They specifically give an example of trying to force a tank to pull more than they want to, and was stated to be prohibited. It's fine people agree with you because that's how they'd like things to be, but the reality is Square Enix has a business interest in ensuring players of all skill levels are treated respectfully and can enjoy the game.

Anyway, if I am ever vote kicked for not pulling enough for some player, I'll report them, cite the Prohibited Activities document, and let you know how that goes. *shrug*

Doesn’t mean you can’t dismiss them. You can’t force people to play with you if they don’t like how you play. GMs have already excused differences of play style. You don’t have to like it, but you have to come to terms with it, cause, it is what it is

[ZephyrMenodora]

Doesn’t mean you can’t dismiss them. You can’t force people to play with you if they don’t like how you play. GMs have already excused differences of play style. You don’t have to like it, but you have to come to terms with it, cause, it is what it is

Except the rules EXPLICITY state you can't. You don't have to liek it, but you have to come to terms with it, cause, it is what it is.

Until you give me evidence of this fact pattern actually working in your argument's favor, rather than just repeating yourself, we'll just have to disagree that Square Enix's prohibited activities allow for this type of vote dismiss.

No. They only say you can’t compel them. Not that you’re stuck with them. Same as you can kick an”early puller” or someone pulling for the tank. None of those actions are explicitly against the rules. But you can remove them for.., wait for it… difference of play style

Requiring someone to play your way or you vote kick them is the same thing as compelling.

I guess in summary, here is my opinion of how things should work.

1. Tanks should not be vote-kicked for not pulling W2W. This is already specifically prohibited in the rules.
2. Tanks should pick up mobs a puller brings to him or her. It's not hard and there is no reason not to. I personally think it should be reportable if you let people die on purpose since there is no rule that ONLY the tank can pull. In some games, like EverQuest, a DPS with a Feign Death pulled, or the Enchanter, and not the tank. So, it's not a Tank-only role.
3. Tanks should be willing to try suggestions from the party about pulling to see how it goes. You don't know what you can do until you try. You might be pleasantly proud of yourself for going outside your comfort zone.
4. Party members of all roles should compromise and try to make the run as quick and smooth as possible given the skill level of the people you are matched with. No one should be vote kicked for any role for just being "medicore" if you can still clear the content. Most content in this game is super-easy and designed to be cleared with average/underskilled players.

[Kolaina]

Except the rules EXPLICITY state you can't. You don't have to liek it, but you have to come to terms with it, cause, it is what it is.

Until you give me evidence of this fact pattern actually working in your argument's favor, rather than just repeating yourself, we'll just have to disagree that Square Enix's prohibited activities allow for this type of vote dismiss.

No. They only say you can’t compel them. Not that you’re stuck with them. Same as you can kick an”early puller” or someone pulling for the tank. None of those actions are explicitly against the rules. But you can remove them for.., wait for it… difference of play style

[Atelier-Bagur]

True that you can practice with Trusts. Incorrect that they actively teach multi-pulling.

Early Squadrons actually teach nothing. You can actually die as the tank multi-pulling as your AI like Cecily will do nothing for quite a while and decide to heal you at 300 hp, which requires the tank to kite to stay alive.

Later on, the Trust tanks pulls nothing on his own. Trusts are great for learning Mechanics as the AI will tell you where to stand if you follow them, but they do not actively teach pulling anything.

And based on my experience the past 2 months since returning, I don't think your playstyle is nearly the majority that you think you it is based on how the typical casual player roulette actually plays the game. You know, players that don't spend all that much of their time in the game and it's just a hobby for, as opposed to someone like yourself with multiple alts, or other posters with every job maxed out within 2 months of an expansion. Players not even invested enough to be posting here at all.

Anyway, I'll never agree with those who think it's fine to disrespect other players and belittle them for not playing at a certain level, so I'll be bowing out from here. There are rules in place, and I will use them if I need to, which is hopefully never.

This is my main issue, people just putting themselves way too much in random group content when the drama isnt needed there. Either run roulettes as a tank where you can dictate how the pace will go (I will die on this hill that this is how the standard should be anyway) or just do them with a premade with friends or PF if it offends you THAT much to potentially run with strangers whom dont do wall to wall pulls. Seriously, no need to make it this difficult.

[ZephyrMenodora]

This is my main issue, people just putting themselves way too much in random group content when the drama isnt needed there. Either run roulettes as a tank where you can dictate how the pace will go (I will die on this hill that this is how the standard should be anyway) or just do them with a premade with friends or PF if it offends you THAT much to potentially run with strangers whom dont do wall to wall pulls. Seriously, no need to make it this difficult.

Pretty much this. Your post should just summarize most of the last several pages of arguments.

Unfortunately there is some elitism on the forums, so that's not good enough. Instead there has to be lots of drama over a difference of a few minutes in clear times, and gatekeeping of Roulettes from players they don't respect.

[Kolaina]

This is my main issue, people just putting themselves way too much in random group content when the drama isnt needed there. Either run roulettes as a tank where you can dictate how the pace will go (I will die on this hill that this is how the standard should be anyway) or just do them with a premade with friends or PF if it offends you THAT much to potentially run with strangers whom dont do wall to wall pulls. Seriously, no need to make it this difficult.

Ah so everyone who has an issue needs a pre made with the exception of the tank. That ARR tank privilege right there.

Tanks are no better or different than any other player. As such they abide to the same rules and same expectations or treatment

[Atelier-Bagur]

And the thing is, I totally get the mentality! I'm one of those tanks whom prefer to wall to wall, and I even go ahead and at least encourage my fellow players to do so if they're a baby tank or a baby healer but I WILL NOT FORCE them to do so if they're not comfortable with it for whatever reason. This game has taught me to put others first besides my own and to generally make sure everyone has a comfortable ride as possible. Im not gonna try to cause stupid drama by either vote dismissing or bailing parties if they dont follow my whims to save some minutes on a dungeon roulette or queue. Some people here need to seriously grow up and start adulting better.

[ZephyrMenodora]

Ah so everyone who has an issue needs a pre made with the exception of the tank. That ARR tank privilege right there.

Tanks are no better or different than any other player. As such they abide to the same rules and same expectations or treatment

What he's saying is people who have issues with ending up with random players, who may not play at your desired skill level, should use pre-mades to avoid this. This isn't just about tanks. It's about anyone who finds themselves getting upset over random players, given that roulettes are RNG. There are also tons of threads in the history of these forums complaining about under-performing healers and DPS too.

Essentially if you can't play nice in the sandbox and getting a slow tank, a healer who doesn't DPS enough to your liking, or a DPS in levelling gear who has a bad rotation will ruin your day due to needing to spend 5 more minutes in a roulette, you should play with pre-mades.

People who want to play at a sub optimal level can also do this. Goes both ways. Let’s not put the onus on everyone else all because 1 person thinks they run the party

These aren't the people complaining and trying to gatekeep who gets to use roulettes.

[Atelier-Bagur]

What he's saying is people who have issues with ending up with random players, who may not play at your desired skill level, should use pre-mades to avoid this. This isn't just about tanks. It's about anyone who finds themselves getting upset over random players, given that roulettes are RNG. There are also tons of threads in the history of these forums complaining about under-performing healers and DPS too.

Essentially if you can't play nice in the sandbox and getting a slow tank, a healer who doesn't DPS enough to your liking, or a DPS in levelling gear who has a bad rotation will ruin your day due to needing to spend 5 more minutes in a roulette, you should play with pre-mades.

yeah Im saying tanks as they're the easiest example to make, but this applies to all roles in general, just learn to be patient with people you dont know. Or better yet communicate with the group before the start of the dungeon. Normally you dont need to do so every time you queue up of course but if you see someone in the party struggling at least acknowledge it and try to help em out instead of setting expectations. I speak from experience in that every now and then I happen to run with groups who struggle with something and I lend my support so that we can make sure we clear the content smoothly. This is all that needs to be said about the issue.