The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[Erendis]

The Ancients are dead and they don't wanna come back.

And how many ancients did you hear that from? One.

[Cleretic]

And how many ancients did you hear that from? One.

Actually, we heard from... rather a few of them. And by my count, the ones that didn't want to come back, or at least seemed to make peace with the fact that wasn't happening...

• Emet-Selch
• Mitron
• Loghrif (sort of, that one's complicated)
• Elidibus
• Fandaniel (in all identities)
• Hythlodaeus
• Most unnamed Zodiark sacrifices
• Venat

Meanwhile, the ones that either did want to come back, or died mad enough that they're presumably not done...

• Lahabrea
• Igeyorhm, maybe, we didn't exactly give her time to contemplate it
• A minority of the Zodiark sacrifices

Granted, the list is biased towards those who lived through the Sundering and the millennia afterwards, and so were probably a bit tired. But I can find very few Ancients that weren't fairly accepting of their deaths, albeit in extreme circumstances.

Considering that discontent souls are known to be capable of manifesting aetherial phenomena like ghosts, I can't help but wonder if having all those powerful, but grief-stricken Ancient souls trying to go through the Lifestream wringer simultaneously isn't going to cause problems.

...now that you mention it, that might be a problem. Again, most of Zodiark's sacrifices seemed pretty okay with their lot, but even those guys seemed to have some heavy thoughts about what all was going on; there was a lot of 'we did everything right, why didn't it work' anxiety. That's probably gonna hurt even more now that Zodiark is actually gone rather than just in trouble.

[redheadturk]

Actually, we heard from... rather a few of them. And by my count, the ones that didn't want to come back, or at least seemed to make peace with the fact that wasn't happening...

• Emet-Selch
• Mitron
• Loghrif (sort of, that one's complicated)
• Elidibus
• Fandaniel (in all identities)
• Hythlodaeus
• Most unnamed Zodiark sacrifices
• Venat

Meanwhile, the ones that either did want to come back, or died mad enough that they're presumably not done...

• Lahabrea
• Igeyorhm, maybe, we didn't exactly give her time to contemplate it
• A minority of the Zodiark sacrifices

Granted, the list is biased towards those who lived through the Sundering and the millennia afterwards, and so were probably a bit tired. But I can find very few Ancients that weren't fairly accepting of their deaths, albeit in extreme circumstances.



...now that you mention it, that might be a problem. Again, most of Zodiark's sacrifices seemed pretty okay with their lot, but even those guys seemed to have some heavy thoughts about what all was going on; there was a lot of 'we did everything right, why didn't it work' anxiety. That's probably gonna hurt even more now that Zodiark is actually gone rather than just in trouble.

Hythlodaeus wants to come back to see us again some day, and since it's been pretty much confirmed that the lifestream has issues with wiping memories from such aetherically dense beings, there is a good chance he will return with all memories intact, and if hre talks Emet into coming back, it is likely that Elidibus will wish to be reborn. Mitron and Loghriff are more complicated cases, as they were sundered, but Mitron states he wants to find Loghriff again "in another life", so there is that.

I don't know enough about Lahabrea's wishes when he's not insane to speak on what he would want once healed by the Lifestream.

[Cleretic]

Hythlodaeus wants to come back to see us again some day, and since it's been pretty much confirmed that the lifestream has issues with wiping memories from such aetherically dense beings, there is a good chance he will return with all memories intact, and if hre talks Emet into coming back, it is likely that Elidibus will wish to be reborn. Mitron and Loghriff are more complicated cases, as they were sundered, but Mitron states he wants to find Loghriff again "in another life", so there is that.

I don't know enough about Lahabrea's wishes when he's not insane to speak on what he would want once healed by the Lifestream.

To clarify, when I'm saying 'don't want to come back' I mean 'in their current contiguous consciousness'. All the people I mention in the first list have basically come to terms with the fact that's going to happen (except for Venat, which I'm still not really comfortable with, but even she seems okay with her fate), while Lahabrea clearly isn't a fan of it.

[redheadturk]

To clarify, when I'm saying 'don't want to come back' I mean 'in their current contiguous consciousness'. All the people I mention in the first list have basically come to terms with the fact that's going to happen (except for Venat, which I'm still not really comfortable with, but even she seems okay with her fate), while Lahabrea clearly isn't a fan of it.

I point out though that all of the Unsundered ancients are quite likely to return with memories intact due to them being aetherically dense enough for the lifestream not to strip their memories and consciousness, so "continguous consciousness" is likely to remain upon reincarnation. Hythlodaeus and Emet Selch are clear proof of the fact that the Unsundered retain consciousness and coherence within the Lifestream.

[Jandor]

I point out though that all of the Unsundered ancients are quite likely to return with memories intact due to them being aetherically dense enough for the lifestream not to strip their memories and consciousness, so "continguous consciousness" is likely to remain upon reincarnation. Hythlodaeus and Emet Selch are clear proof of the fact that the Unsundered retain consciousness and coherence within the Lifestream.

They hadn't gone through the lifestream, so much as bobbed about on its surface watching what was going on. I suspect you've got to sink to the bottom, as it were, to get reincarnated.

Honestly, one fault I do have with Endwalker is that it showed too much of the afterlife. Seems to me that the afterlife is basically chilling with your mates, with all your memories restored, watching the goings on of the material plane like it's a movie you all watch together. Actually being alive is something you only do if you fancy it, as a bit of a change of pace.

[Cleretic]

And of course, Hermes was needed because he's the only qualified expert on dynamis in the Convocation, which is pretty useful when you have a dynamis-centric disaster on your hands. Everyone else is about as knowledgeable about it as I am about quantum physics (which is to say 'I can kinda follow the first few sentences of a discussion on it and recognize a few terms').

I point out though that all of the Unsundered ancients are quite likely to return with memories intact due to them being aetherically dense enough for the lifestream not to strip their memories and consciousness, so "continguous consciousness" is likely to remain upon reincarnation. Hythlodaeus and Emet Selch are clear proof of the fact that the Unsundered retain consciousness and coherence within the Lifestream.

A couple pages late on this (because I had to sleep and work, go figure), but... uhhh, that's not how it works. At all. Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus weren't cleansed because it hadn't been long at all since their deaths, and because generally having business in life gives people's selves the strengths to hold on longer. Remember that the earliest death reflected in the Aitiascope is Rhytatyn, and he's basically fine, which kinda showcases a minimum of how far both of these can hold.

If pure soul density was the culprit, then Ancient society wouldn't even consider death to be any form of finality at all, because someone would come back with all their memories. Death would just be a bit of a break before they bounced right back as exceptionally productive babies. And we know that's wrong, because Fake Amaurot's denizens treated us like children solely because of size, meaning that the Ancients had a concept of 'small person = child who does not yet know the ways of this world'.

EDIT: I don't really like the overall Amaurot and Sundering discussion all that much because I find the subject fairly uninteresting and overtalked at this point, but one of the funniest parts to me is when we occasionally have to step back and establish such base-level concepts as 'the existence of children'.

[Absimiliard]

[LIST][*]Lahabrea

Can he even come back at this point? Dude got gobbled up by a nascent primal. Seems like he might've been destroyed outright by that, given all we know now.

[Erendis]

Actually, we heard from... rather a few of them. And by my count, the ones that didn't want to come back, or at least seemed to make peace with the fact that wasn't happening...

• Emet-Selch
• Mitron
• Loghrif (sort of, that one's complicated)
• Elidibus
• Fandaniel (in all identities)
• Hythlodaeus
• Most unnamed Zodiark sacrifices
• Venat

This whole list is such a huge stretch that it does not hold any water. There is Hades, who directly said it. And there is loony Hermes who already wanted to kill everyone while everything was still unsundered. I would count him as 0.5 at best since he did not care about Etheirys at any state. Mitron and Loghrif hope to meet again in the future, maybe. Loghrif actually chose to live here and now with sundered people (1/14, not even 8/14) even after her memories were restored by Mitron. Hythlodeus would most definitely stay if Hades did since he only wants to be by his friends' side. Venat did not say whether she would like to stay or not, we just know she is gone completely and has not even a choice anymore. Elidibus chose to sacrifice all of his aether to save sundered planet without any hope to have it whole again. If that means he is completely gone without any choice like Venat, I am not completely sure. As for sacrifices, they wanted to protect the star. Now that they do not need to do it any more who knows what they would want...

[Cleretic]

This whole list is such a huge stretch that it does not hold any water. There is Hades, who directly said it. And there is loony Hermes who already wanted to kill everyone while everything was still unsundered. I would count him as 0.5 at best since he did not care about Etheirys at any state. Mitron and Loghrif hope to meet again in the future, maybe. Loghrif actually chose to live here and now with sundered people (1/14, not even 8/14) even after her memories were restored by Mitron. Hythlodeus would most definitely stay if Hades did since he only wants to be by his friends' side. Venat did not say whether she would like to stay or not, we just know she is gone completely and has not even a choice anymore. Elidibus chose to sacrifice all of his aether to save sundered planet without any hope to have it whole again. If that means he is completely gone without any choice like Venat, I am not completely sure. As for sacrifices, they wanted to protect the star. Now that they do not need to do it any more who knows what they would want...

I'm not entirely sure you understand the purpose of the list. These are the Ancients that, overall, seemed to die content with that fact, to contrast with the much shorter list of the ones that weren't.

Emet-Selch directly said it, yes.
Mitron wasn't exactly happy with the fact, but accepted it.
Loghrif is weird because we kinda have to synthesize her stance from Gaia, but that final scene with Mitron does effectively say that Loghrif is happy with yielding to Gaia, and maybe they'll meet again in a spiritual sense. If Loghrif counts anywhere she counts here, but if you wanted to remove her I wouldn't argue.
Elidibus had some trouble, but overall embraced... whatever cessation of self is in store for him, be it reincarnation or not.
Fandaniel was suicidal. That's not a great way to embrace your inevitable end, but it unarguably is doing so.
Most of the unnamed sacrifices we hear from in Mare Lamentorum seem okay with their fate... except for the part where it's not working. There are some that clearly regret their choice, but it's not overall; mostly they're just anxious about other things.
Hythlodaeus seems like he could go either way; if he got to live again he'd be cool with that, but he's also entirely okay with going forth into death. Which frankly concerns me; I feel like you should have a stronger stance on that, dude, that is a weird fence to sit on.
And Venat states directly that she's happy with her fate. That fate may not be reincarnation, but she's happy with it.