"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[Sigiria]

You'd notice a difference too, however. Aiding the enemy states: "the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy" while your pointed at examples state: "It is prohibited to make statements such as:".

It's still trying to make someone compel to a playing style. You can be tongue in cheek about it and say "Well the person that pulled didn't actually say anything, they just forced the tank to play as they wanted by their actions" but then it's exactly the same the other way around, the tank can just not say anything and still not be giving advantage to the enemies. For all you know, they didn't pull a group of enemies they didn't prepare for, they could even argue that ignoring the additionnal ennemies and letting the one person that pulled die would make these enemies reset and give better survival odds to the rest of the party. And whether or not it is accurate, if they say they believed it was the best course of action it's highly unlikely they'd be in any kind of trouble.

In the end my point still is, the ToS are broad on purpose and will always be more of an attempt to make people try to behave civilized. In both case it can be interpreted in anyway that fit the narrative someone want purely based on perspectives.
And let's not pretend that, whether it's the tank that refuse to help them or the person that took upon themselves to pull another pack for the tank to deal with, it is not about the ego of one person that'd rather push their own way to play onto someone else over just having a one line conversation to confirm everyone is on the same wavelength.

[Jijifli]

It's still trying to make someone compel to a playing style.

To which, I need to actually really ask this question because it gets brought up. Exactly how am I making you play different? You are pressing the exact same buttons in the exact same way regardless of the number of enemies once you have more than 1 at all. There is literally nothing that changes in how the tank plays. There is also literally nothing that is preventing you, because of that, from having them anyways. Nothing is stopping any of the tanks from doing spin no jutsu until things crumble, be it one, or two groups, as nothing changes in the style at all. That is, of course, unless you're intentionally single targeting in big pulls. Which, while that can be your style... I think most can agree you should probably be hitting everything, even if we ignore damage, just to at least keep enmity.

In the end my point still is, the ToS are broad on purpose and will always be more of an attempt to make people try to behave civilized.

I am aware it's meant to be broad. However, we do have examples, with exact wordings in what it applies to or not, even on whether it's action or words. I take things literal, I have trouble telling if someone's making a joke or not, or just giving a saying rather than being serious (I am the guy in script-writing class that drew a picture to go with my script because our professor said "Paint me a picture" and I took it literal rather than what he meant which was that he should be able to make a mental image from our work.) If it's worded the way it is, I will take it the way it is worded, simple.

Since we do wanna bring up how broad and vague it wants to be though, I do feel like sharing something interesting. We had a sprout who called a player in the NN the R word over saying UwU (You know, the fight), and they were swiftly removed, as you'd expect. A mentor decided to force the conversation in relation on whether or not it was okay (They were for it being okay, saying we jumped our gun too quickly). Multiple players were asking them to stop, and I showed even just the smallest amount of patience, telling them that they shouldn't have this kind of talk in nn, and if they continue they'll be kicked.

I received a 10 days suspension, for grief tactics, in relation to this, as far as my reading over the ToS for every single nook and cranny in it that could possible apply to anything I had been doing for the past 2 months (which, was little. It was NN, or craft/gather stuff. I was burned out of group content.) Now, this does put your point up that yes, it's broad, and not clear. It's made so the GM can twist what they might need to force a violation. But does that mean I should just play the game in a way where I can be 100% sure I'm not causing a violation for somebody? There are players that absolutely hate anything going too fast, to the point where I've been personally 'suggested' to stop AoE entirely, because they wanted to take the dungeon slow. Not 'don't pull big' or even 'don't pull' but literally 'stop dpsing please I can't see the enemies and it's hurting my experience and exploration.'

To which, we need to bring up what they repeat plenty of times for the ToS. What a reasonable person would find offensive. I would think a reasonable, average person, wants to be playing the game. And while you do want to argue that a dps ending up ahead of the tank is compelling the tanks playstyle, the dps is at least still playing the game, while a tank who decides to stop playing is not playing the game. That's a key difference, and I think we can agree it is unreasonable to also punish the entire party over one person.

[Lium]

I also think some of these "you pull you tank people" have not read up on prohibited activities:

Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.

◆Monster Player Kill (MPK)
"MPK" is an act of sending a monster towards another person so that they are knocked out or obstructing another person's gameplay.

As has been pointed out in this thread, that could easily be taken both ways. Forcing your play style on others, etc.

The TOS argument is just stupid in general. All someone has to say is “I felt forced to play in a way I wasn’t comfortable with.”

SE has banned people for simply emoting at someone. Good luck.

[Sigiria]

To which, I need to actually really ask this question because it gets brought up. Exactly how am I making you play different? You are pressing the exact same buttons in the exact same way regardless of the number of enemies once you have more than 1 at all. There is literally nothing that changes in how the tank plays. There is also literally nothing that is preventing you, because of that, from having them anyways. Nothing is stopping any of the tanks from doing spin no jutsu until things crumble, be it one, or two groups, as nothing changes in the style at all. That is, of course, unless you're intentionally single targeting in big pulls. Which, while that can be your style... I think most can agree you should probably be hitting everything, even if we ignore damage, just to at least keep enmity.

I mean, yeah, there's a difference in playstyle whether you're tanking 3 or 6 ennemies. You don't need to be as aware of how to space your defensive CDs to always have something up so even a random healer can keep you alive on a 3 mob pull, making it easier to reliably progress without being overwhelmed by keeping track of your defensive abilities while keeping your dps rotation. Now maybe you and I find it easy to do but that doesn't mean everyone have to. You don't know what people's circumstances are behind their screen but they're still free to approach the game in a manner that allow them to do what they can at their own level of play.

I can understand how some people might end up feeling worried to pull more when I've had wall to wall pull where I pace all my CDs but the dps are barely doing any damage so the pull takes forever, the SGE struggle to keep me alive and I end up using living dead with 4 mobs still alive, allowing the party to finish 2 of them before I ultimately die then the 2 other by themselves before I rejoin only to have the healer say "Don't use living dead, it's useless since a sage can't heal you enough" and even after trying to explain that the only difference would have been me dying 10 seconds earlier they only reply "Just don't use it"
I've been playing the game enough to just roll my eyes and go on with my day, but someone else might actually believe that if they've got a sage in their party they're safer just pulling one pack at a time, effectively using a different gameplay approach to clearing a dungeon.

[Lilyth]

Don't mind me, just posting some cool stuff.



source: ffreddit

[Jijifli]

I mean, yeah, there's a difference in playstyle whether you're tanking 3 or 6 ennemies. You don't need to be as aware of how to space your defensive CDs to always have something up so even a random healer can keep you alive on a 3 mob pull, making it easier to reliably progress without being overwhelmed by keeping track of your defensive abilities while keeping your dps rotation.

Okay. So, again, I just really need to make sure we're on the same page here. So you're saying yes, there's a playstyle difference, because you want to press a cd for bigger ones, and they aren't needed for smaller ones.

Under technicality, I can say you're right. You did have to press exactly one more button a single time, which is hugely different. But I guess then comes this question, and it's a simple one. Do you consider not using your tools at all, period, a valued playstyle? Because if so, we would have to agree the dps in your later example (who, I'd assume are just autoattacking or pressing just 1, seeing as I've managed just fine in big pulls with single target dpsers) are also doing a valued playstyle, which is... strange to me, since that example is one where they aren't playing, which I feel like isn't reasonable, to not really play at all in a game you're playing.

You don't know what people's circumstances are behind their screen but they're still free to approach the game in a manner that allow them to do what they can at their own level of play.

To which I know you'll quote this back. You're correct. I don't know what people's circumstances are behind the screen. For all I know, the player could be missing their arms, due to either an accident or a birth defect, and how would I be aware of that? ... Oh, right, there was that MCH doing top level dps with his feet, because he lacked his arms. Okay, so we can't mean physical conditions as players have shown you can overcome them, so we must mean mental disorders then. But in that case, you have to see it the other way too like you want me to, as there are players whose mental disabilities (such as ADHD) can have it start to act up from singles. I know from my own, personal, anecdotal experience, going small actually makes me feel groggy, and sleepy, and actually hurts my capability to play. So, you're right, I don't know their circumstances. Just like they don't know mine, or others, and the best anyone can assume is whatever is reasonable, which in this case, is that you should still be participating.

I'll say it again from an earlier post. If you have a problem with what is happening, you mention it, and you vote kick if it's staying a problem. You don't sit down, punish 3 people for 1's mistake, and have a hissy fit. You are 100% in the rules to kick anyone for difference in playstyle, this has been repeated by GM's countless times. But when you force a wipe simply because you dislike that someone, still somehow, got ahead of the tank that has multiple gap closers, you aren't being the better person. You aren't teaching a lesson. You're being a child, and should communicate. You know, like the bigger person, no? Stooping to what would be, in your opinion I assume, 'their level' isn't proving anything besides you, by your own definitions, are no better than them. In which case, you being upset is hypocritical at best.

I've been playing the game enough to just roll my eyes and go on with my day, but someone else might actually believe that if they've got a sage in their party they're safer just pulling one pack at a time, effectively using a different gameplay approach to clearing a dungeon.

So lemmie just focus on this real quick. Did you, or did you not continue to pull for said scenario? Is the tank in this story, if I assume you're just exampling and is not personal experience, continuing to attack the enemy? If so, this is not what this is about. I feel like you're twisting the argument away. YPYT is refusing to attack, at all, until the player is dead and/or removed from the party (though, like I keep stressing, you should use that second one instead of the first). Do you continue along your way in the dungeon because the sge couldn't heal you through LD, or do you sit at the entrance, say, "Well since you know how to tank better than me, go ahead" and refuse until either the SGE leaves, a kick pops up either for them or you, or they grovel at your mightiness? Because YPYT is the second group, not the first.

[Jojoya]

I also think some of these "you pull you tank people" have not read up on prohibited activities:

Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.

◆Monster Player Kill (MPK)
"MPK" is an act of sending a monster towards another person so that they are knocked out or obstructing another person's gameplay.

"You pull you tank" generally isn't going to fall under either category. No one in the group should be pulling mobs when they don't know if the tank is ready to pick up those mobs (perhaps the tank is having connection issues or a small child ran into the room with an injury and the tank is attending to the child).

Someone who is not the tank and pulling without verifying the tank is prepared to pick up the mobs on the other hand definitely could be seen as exhibiting uncooperative behavior or attempting to MPK other party members (since healers are frequently the ones who pay the price when a DPS pulls as they'll end up with aggro from any stray mobs in the pack that DPS is not attacking).

Ultimately, it's going to come down to communication within the group.

I'd rather let the tank take the lead since they're built to withstand the damage and know what they're comfortable handling (if I'm healing and they're being exceptionally cautious I might try to encourage them to pull more but I'm not going to press them to do it). A run usually isn't going to take that much longer just because the tank is on the cautious side and depending on the party can actually make for a better social occasion as party members freely banter.

If I'm really in the mood for a speed run group, then I'll form one with players I know and trust to be capable of a speed run rather than take my chances with Duty Finder matchmaking.

[Aurora_Sylphy]

"You pull you tank" generally isn't going to fall under either category. No one in the group should be pulling mobs when they don't know if the tank is ready to pick up those mobs (perhaps the tank is having connection issues or a small child ran into the room with an injury and the tank is attending to the child).

Someone who is not the tank and pulling without verifying the tank is prepared to pick up the mobs on the other hand definitely could be seen as exhibiting uncooperative behavior or attempting to MPK other party members (since healers are frequently the ones who pay the price when a DPS pulls as they'll end up with aggro from any stray mobs in the pack that DPS is not attacking).

Ultimately, it's going to come down to communication within the group.

I'd rather let the tank take the lead since they're built to withstand the damage and know what they're comfortable handling (if I'm healing and they're being exceptionally cautious I might try to encourage them to pull more but I'm not going to press them to do it). A run usually isn't going to take that much longer just because the tank is on the cautious side and depending on the party can actually make for a better social occasion as party members freely banter.

If I'm really in the mood for a speed run group, then I'll form one with players I know and trust to be capable of a speed run rather than take my chances with Duty Finder matchmaking.

No, you pull you tank would fall under the aiding the enemy category. Note it state's 'not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation'. A tank's job is to maintain threat, gain and keep aggro on mobs so the party is not killed by monsters. YPYT is refusing to take aggro/threat off a dps/healer/other player, and thus is deemed 'not performing the necessary gameplay', that is, not doing your role you queued in (that being a tank). Now yes, someone can report a DPS using MPK or forcing play, but that does not excuse them from their own TOS violation. At that point (where the DPS keeps pulling despite the tank saying to please not) and the Tank pulling a YPYT are both acting like shitty individuals. One does not excuse the other.

[Lium]

If I'm really in the mood for a speed run group, then I'll form one with players I know and trust to be capable of a speed run rather than take my chances with Duty Finder matchmaking.

And here's your answer, folks. When you sign up for a random group, you have to be willing to accept the randomness of it. It's what you signed up for. That's why it's called a roulette.

If you want a group to go exactly the way you want it, you need to form your own group. That's what Party Finder, Linkshells, and Discord are for. There are solutions everywhere you look in this game for whatever it is you want to do.

These types of threads are on par with that other thread someone posted about wanting some type of Elo system to gate players from running normal dungeons based on skill level. That's how stupid the forums are getting. Refreshingly, the majority of the posts in that thread were saying what a terrible idea that would be, and most pointed out how PF exists if you want really skilled players. DF is random.

That same exact answer applies to this thread.

[Nestama]

How often do people actually wipe from w2w pulls in Expert Roulette and/or Levelling dungeons? I know that some levelling dungeons can be very sketchy (65, 71, 79 and 81) with their w2w's, but a majority are pretty easy to handle. The 50/60/70/80/90 dungeons I can't really see people wiping to if a DPS/healer pulls.

Like take Antitower for example. I can go through that dungeon as WHM and never need to touch Cure II and Solace once you can w2w in there. Assize and Regen is all I need for healing :T