Y'shtola is a Mary Sue.

[Ranaku]

Wonder if some of the people here go also frequently into an art gallery and tell the artists that they would like their artworks but in a different color and please use a different frame and a finer brush would do the trick!

Fact is art lies in the eye of the beholder. You might dislike art (and yes writing also counts as a form of art) and you might like art but telling the artist to do something different is extremely rude and uncalled for and many people here should try to finally and really get that into their brains.

Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean there aren't people who like it and it has to be changed. The artist (in this case writer/s) have a vision in their head and it's not your place to say that this is wrong, you may say you don't like it that way. But stuff like "flawed writing" etc. is really uncalled for.

And no it's not that i am a XIV fanboy who would defend everything to the last bit just cause i venerate the game over everything, i also don't like some pieces of the story. I feel like for example the transition from Yda to Lyse was rushed and really weird. But that is something i don't like, others might like Lyse as she is now and that is alright. I don't flame the writers for it and neither am i telling them that they don't have the guts or something to just kill Yda or stuff like that. It's just rude, this story isn't yours and if you don't enjoy it that is not the fault of the writers, it's just your personal taste.

tl:dr: Just cause you don't like apples doesn't mean you have to tell the farmer to eradicate all appletrees and plant instead peaches. If you don't like apples, go somewhere they sell peaches. That easy.

[Vyrerus]

Artists are beyond critique

Unfortunately, it's not like comparing apples to peaches. As far as writing and art go, there are certain characteristics inherent in them that make them better.

In traditional art, say painting, things like color choice/blending/perspective etc. all have methods for improvement. Not all artists create what they intend to create. They try their best to paint what's in their mind's eye, and often times they fail. Have you never met a dissatisfied artist who was seeking to improve their methods?

When people make these critiques they are citing a flaw they perceive. Nothing more, nothing less.

There are people who play this game who are better writers than those writing for it. There are also many more people playing this game who have experienced stories with far better writing and characters.

We pay them money to continue writing it, and to continue letting us play it, so it is as much ours as it is theirs. It's basically a group commission. Without us, they will stop making it. Stop writing it. We are always free to voice our opinions of it, in an effort to have art closer to what got us in on it in the first place.

Surely you've noticed that if they hear enough people asking them to plant peaches, then they will plant peaches.

[linayar]

We pay them money to continue writing it, and to continue letting us play it, so it is as much ours as it is theirs. It's basically a group commission. Without us, they will stop making it. Stop writing it. We are always free to voice our opinions of it, in an effort to have art closer to what got us in on it in the first place.

While I agree with our freedom to voice our opinions, I don't agree that it makes it a group commission as we didn't commission anything. They made a product and advertised it to us. Giving our feedback on their product doesn't make it ours.

Besides, the idea of a group commission presumes the group wants the same thing in order to commission that thing in the first place, and it's clear this community is divided on many things.

Surely you've noticed that if they hear enough people asking them to plant peaches, then they will plant peaches.

If that is true, then I guess there is not enough healers complaining about the role.

[Vyrerus]

While I agree with our freedom to voice our opinions, I don't agree that it makes it a group commission as we didn't commission anything. They made a product and advertised it to us. Giving our feedback on their product doesn't make it ours.

Besides, the idea of a group commission presumes the group wants the same thing in order to commission that thing in the first place, and it's clear this community is divided on many things.

If that is true, then I guess there is not enough healers complaining about the role.

Mmm. Wrong. They made a product, and it failed. They then apologized to us and improved it according to what would be more popular. Folks dedicated to what they loved allowed for them to make what we have now by continuing to invest in their commission, even though there was no promise that it would remain the same.

As divided as the playerbase is, it is due to its sheer burgeoning size. The less niche a game becomes, the more opinions on it you will see.

You've simply described another type of tree. I'm more referring to story choices ala stuff like Emet-selch's popularity changing their mind on how to go about with the narrative after SHB.

[linayar]

Mmm. Wrong. They made a product, and it failed. They then apologized to us and improved it according to what would be more popular. Folks dedicated to what they loved allowed for them to make what we have now by continuing to invest in their commission, even though there was no promise that it would remain the same.

Exactly, there is no promise that it would remain the same because it is ultimately their game and their vision. Improved according to what would be more popular is not necessarily the same as improved according to those who paid for the product, especially for a failed game who wants to attract a bigger player base.

As divided as the playerbase is, it is due to its sheer burgeoning size. The less niche a game becomes, the more opinions on it you will see.

You've simply described another type of tree. I'm more referring to story choices ala stuff like Emet-selch's popularity changing their mind on how to go about with the narrative after SHB.

It's all the same tree, just different branches. The point is that they have the final say on when and where and to what extent to listen to the feedback given, especially when there are conflicting feedbacks.

[Vyrerus]

Exactly, there is no promise that it would remain the same because it is ultimately their game and their vision. Improved according to what would be more popular is not necessarily the same as improved according to those who paid for the product, especially for a failed game who wants to attract a bigger player base.

It's all the same tree, just different branches. The point is that they have the final say on when and where and to what extent to listen to the feedback given, especially when there are conflicting feedbacks.

Yeah. But you see, they kept the game going at the behest of those who insisted they had faith that they could make it into a good product. It was the vision of the original playerbase of this game that it was flawed but great and could be made greater, and it was by their graces. The company listened to them. Then new voices came, and the company seeks to listen to everyone as much as they possibly can.

We asked for Male Viera. They gave it to us. We've asked for a lot of things, and they've given them to us. It takes time for seeds to grow. They don't plant every seed, and do have a great control over what they plant, but we ultimately fund the farm.

The challenge becomes... there are a lot of people who just want to fund the farm because they like everything about it, regardless of what gets planted. No matter how strong or good some petitions get or some voices are, they don't make headway unless they are legion. I will admit the playerbase has stopped bringing quality to the game, now that it is a country, more or less.

[linayar]

Yeah. But you see, they kept the game going at the behest of those who insisted they had faith that they could make it into a good product. It was the vision of the original playerbase of this game that it was flawed but great and could be made greater, and it was by their graces. The company listened to them. Then new voices came, and the company seeks to listen to everyone as much as they possibly can.

We asked for Male Viera. They gave it to us. We've asked for a lot of things, and they've given them to us. It takes time for seeds to grow. They don't plant every seed, and do have a great control over what they plant, but we ultimately fund the farm.

The challenge becomes... there are a lot of people who just want to fund the farm because they like everything about it, regardless of what gets planted. No matter how strong or good some petitions get or some voices are, they don't make headway unless they are legion. I will admit the playerbase has stopped bringing quality to the game, now that it is a country, more or less.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. If it's about the funding, then telling players who have a lot of complaints about the game to stop funding the game would be a non-controversial suggestion, but instead, that kind of answer is met with accusations of gatekeeping.

That's why, for me, knowing that they have their own vision of what kind of product they want to make is just as important as knowing that they are willing to accommodate people's feedback without throwing away their entire vision. So even if they don't respond favorably to every feedback (even my own), I can still agree with their overall vision for the product and be able to enjoy at least parts of it and safely ignore the parts I don't enjoy.

That doesn't really happen if I think their product is simply the result of a "group commission" where I don't even feel like I'm part of the group that is supposedly commissioning this product.

[Ranaku]

snip

Yeah no, art is beyond criticism as far as the "i don't like it" goes.

As i said, some people might like a mary sue character, is that now wrong? What makes your standard the superior one? What makes your opinion the only true opinion? Exactly, what is good for you might be bad for others. What you hate others might like. There is no universal good or bad especially in art.

Not to mention that there is a difference in storytelling in different cultures. Is the common japanese way now worse than your western ways?

And no, you don't pay them money to continue writing it. You pay them money to gain access to the content. That is all. They can tell you tomorrow that the art gallery is closed and you get a refund for your season ticket and that is that.

And as i said before, saying what you dislike is all good and dandy. But there is a difference between saying "i don't like XYZ" and "the writing is flawed". One is your opinion the other one is a arrogant comment on a topic that is highly subjective. To make a claim of objectivity, which "the writing is flawed" is, is arrogant beyond measure. Cause you put your own opinion of "i don't like it" over all other opinions and act like your opinion is the only truth here.

So what i am saying is, don't be rude in your criticism and state your opinion and don't make your opinion into an universal fact. Cause as i said, some people might enjoy it, some might not.

[Zabuza]

Yeah no, art is beyond criticism as far as the "i don't like it" goes.

As i said, some people might like a mary sue character, is that now wrong? What makes your standard the superior one? What makes your opinion the only true opinion? Exactly, what is good for you might be bad for others. What you hate others might like. There is no universal good or bad especially in art.

Not to mention that there is a difference in storytelling in different cultures. Is the common japanese way now worse than your western ways?

And no, you don't pay them money to continue writing it. You pay them money to gain access to the content. That is all. They can tell you tomorrow that the art gallery is closed and you get a refund for your season ticket and that is that.

And as i said before, saying what you dislike is all good and dandy. But there is a difference between saying "i don't like XYZ" and "the writing is flawed". One is your opinion the other one is a arrogant comment on a topic that is highly subjective. To make a claim of objectivity, which "the writing is flawed" is, is arrogant beyond measure. Cause you put your own opinion of "i don't like it" over all other opinions and act like your opinion is the only truth here.

So what i am saying is, don't be rude in your criticism and state your opinion and don't make your opinion into an universal fact. Cause as i said, some people might enjoy it, some might not.

So you think it's good writing when a character is the same, 10 years later, as they were when they were introduced? People don't say that about Zenos and he was in the plot for far less time, yet are willing to give Y'shtola a pass, why? Because catgirl hot awooga?

[MsQi]

So you think it's good writing when a character is the same, 10 years later, as they were when they were introduced? People don't say that about Zenos and he was in the plot for far less time, yet are willing to give Y'shtola a pass, why? Because catgirl hot awooga?

Y'shtola has changed. Zenos is a putz

He's that pervy stalker you tolerate because he has a car when you need to get somewhere.