The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Then let’s look at the black rose calamity. Where they did exactly that, turning back the clock, willing to sacrifice millions to save us. This is portrayed as a rather heroic act. The interesting anomaly here in both thavnair and garlemald is that the WoL was present for all of this, a more rejoined sundered individual that was there to assist them time and time again. Were it not for this said individual, they all would have perished and given up, as we see in Thavnair, only a small amount of people seem to survive, the skies riddled with blasphemies and that very dark scene showing just how susceptible the sundered were in turning. The same in Garlemald.

Venat attempted to confront a group of people only after the calamity had already struck. I actually remember another poster’s analogy here that seemed to fit quite well. Imagine if we had gone up to that group of panicking people in thavnair, and said stop, you need to learn to suffer. Suffering is natural! You truly think they would have stopped to listen? The fact is whatever her horrible excuses for not intervening beforehand may be, she intervened after the calamity had already struck, when she had knowledge of it beforehand. Just as the ancients are said to be wrong for placing all their beliefs in one “god”(Zodiark), Venat placed all of her beliefs in the WoL. A single person. The move on theme is rather hollow when there is yet hope in saving those who are not truly lost. The WoL didn’t simply move on from the first, they stayed and went through Eden to help it slowly grow back. The WoL didn’t simply move on from Ishgard. He stayed and slowly helped it rebuild itself. The ironworks didn’t simply move on and accept their fate in the world of the calamity. They worked to turn back the clock and give themselves another chance. The Ancients were trying to do no different. They just didn’t conform to Venat’s views, so she played god.

[Cleretic]

Then let’s look at the black rose calamity. Where they did exactly that, turning back the clock, willing to sacrifice millions to save us. This is portrayed as a rather heroic act. The interesting anomaly here in both thavnair and garlemald is that the WoL was present for all of this, a more rejoined sundered individual that was there to assist them time and time again. Were it not for this said individual, they all would have perished and given up, as we see in Thavnair, only a small amount of people seem to survive, the skies riddled with blasphemies and that very dark scene showing just how susceptible the sundered were in turning. The same in Garlemald.

Venat attempted to confront a group of people only after the calamity had already struck. I actually remember another poster’s analogy here that seemed to fit quite well. Imagine if we had gone up to that group of panicking people in thavnair, and said stop, you need to learn to suffer. Suffering is natural! You truly think they would have stopped to listen? The fact is whatever her horrible excuses for not intervening beforehand may be, she intervened after the calamity had already struck, when she had knowledge of it beforehand. Just as the ancients are said to be wrong for placing all their beliefs in one “god”(Zodiark), Venat placed all of her beliefs in the WoL. A single person. The move on theme is rather hollow when there is yet hope in saving those who are not truly lost. The WoL didn’t simply move on from the first, they stayed and went through Eden to help it slowly grow back. The WoL didn’t simply move on from Ishgard. He stayed and slowly helped it rebuild itself. The ironworks didn’t simply move on and accept their fate in the world of the calamity. They worked to turn back the clock and give themselves another chance. The Ancients were trying to do no different. They just didn’t conform to Venat’s views, so she played god.

Okay?

This is explicitly meant to be a question with no clear right or wrong answer, that falls to you to decide on, and I will clearly not be convincing you away from your stance (your signature honestly already made that crystal-clear). You have very clearly looked at the facts as they lie and decided that Venat was the greater evil; meanwhile, I'm looking at her opposition and going 'you know what, the lady that needs to have a dedicated shampoo and conditioner budget is the one I am more comfortable with'.

...and now that I describe her like that, I wonder if Venat is meant to share a resemblance with Ysayle in terms of both general character design and concept. Ysayle is also a morally ambiguous character taking a strong stance that I ultimately consider the greater good in that situation. ...who also just so happens to turn into a giant lady with a monumentally powerful kick/stomp.

[EaraGrace]

Venat attempted to confront a group of people only after the calamity had already struck. I actually remember another poster’s analogy here that seemed to fit quite well. Imagine if we had gone up to that group of panicking people in thavnair, and said stop, you need to learn to suffer. Suffering is natural! You truly think they would have stopped to listen?

…yeah, actually I think they would’ve.

[KariTheFox]

Imagine if we had gone up to that group of panicking people in thavnair, and said stop, you need to learn to suffer. Suffering is natural! You truly think they would have stopped to listen?

The panicking people of Thavnair, remembering the words of thier ancestors as the Final Days were happening around them:

Know this my children. There is more ugliness than beauty in this world.

To live is to suffer. To drink of calamity and drown in anguish. To toil and be tested, always and ever.

'Tis a perilous path you walk. Death lurks in the dark, and is the sole promise that awaits at journey's end.

You will tremble with terror. You will weep tears of anger and despair

But do not avert your eyes. See your life for what it is.

Then you will see how the hardships make you strong. Every doubt reforged as scales for your armor. Every agony to temper your blade.

So, yes. I think the message of "learn to live with suffering and despair, as it is a natural part of life and a constant companion" would go over quite well and help to calm the situation, since that's what actually happened.

[Veloran]

Sure is lucky they were bailed out by a godlike hero before 75+% of their people were dead and their civilization along with the entire rest of the world was reduced to a smoking ruin.

[Theodric]

I'd also note that suffering wasn't a natural part of life in the way in which it was introduced, either. Neither the Sundering or the Final Days were natural events. They were entirely manufactured.

Which makes the opposition to Venat even more justified - nobody is obligated to just go along with it whenever some delusional saboteur decides to alter the very conditions of existence in a way that is detrimental. How convenient, too, that Venat never had to actually abide by the rules that she set forth for everybody else.

[EaraGrace]

You’re completely missing the point.

Ok, I’m curious what the point is then?

This is just after they had been saved by the WoL and a dragon lmao.

Yes, the combination of their armed forces, Vrtra and the WoL managed to quell the original blasphemy. Had they all despaired after helplessly losing friends, family and loved ones (like the Ancients) however, that effort would be for nothing.

Not only that, but considering i believe it was the radiant that even told that lady to calm down and it was completely ignored and she turned anyways. So no, i don’t see any proof whatsoever they would have.

It is literally a scene showing them do exactly that. Just because not everyone avoided despairing does not change that fact. Given the Scions were able to contain that particular outbreak of despair, even after a man watched his son turned, their leader killed, and they found out Palaka might’ve been wiped out, I’d say they handled things with strength.

It took a dragon showing up just to save Matsya and the baby. This is all just proving my point. They would have been nowhere were it not for the WoL, so it’s a bit of a stretch to say things like, “oh, the sundered endured it all, so much better than the ancients.” When it’s very clear they didnt.

How does that prove your point? Matsya is noted to struggle with fear and despair and the baby is… well a baby! The fact they maintain hope long enough for Vrtra and Estinien to arrive is a pretty mean feat actually.

Afaik, the baby only survived because we showed up. Afaik, Matsya only survived because we were there to hold the monsters off from the baby while Matsya ran off. Which, afaik, Matsya only survived because of Vrtra showing up. And again, we have an entire settlement and then clearly some more considering the amount of blasphemies in the sky that seem to show the majority of thavnair turned. Hell, one of them turned because a business inquiry went sour and the guy was scared of losing his job. That’s how susceptible they were.

The guy was scared of losing his life’s work, leaving him, his family and his community poor and starving. And we have no way of knowing how many turned, though nothing seems to indicate it was close to a majority.

I'd also note that suffering wasn't a natural part of life in the way in which it was introduced, either. Neither the Sundering or the Final Days were natural events. They were entirely manufactured.

Which makes the opposition to Venat even more justified - nobody is obligated to just go along with it whenever some delusional saboteur decides to alter the very conditions of existence in a way that is detrimental. How convenient, too, that Venat never had to actually abide by the rules that she set forth for everybody else.

What is a natural event? Was the planet that nuked themselves an example of a natural event causing the end? Or what about Ra’La and the Plenty? Or the invasion of the Omicron? Perhaps the point is not that suffering is all natural, but that it is inevitable. Whether it’s from the inherent limitations one’s born into, like in the planet that ended up polluted or it’s from circumstances that develop later on, the point is you will suffer.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Ok, I’m curious what the point is then?



Yes, the combination of their armed forces, Vrtra and the WoL managed to quell the original blasphemy. Had they all despaired after helplessly losing friends, family and loved ones (like the Ancients) however, that effort would be for nothing.



It is literally a scene showing them do exactly that. Just because not everyone avoided despairing does not change that fact. Given the Scions were able to contain that particular outbreak of despair, even after a man watched his son turned, their leader killed, and they found out Palaka might’ve been wiped out, I’d say they handled things with strength.




How does that prove your point? Matsya is noted to struggle with fear and despair and the baby is… well a baby! The fact they maintain hope long enough for Vrtra and Estinien to arrive is a pretty mean feat actually.



The guy was scared of losing his life’s work, leaving him, his family and his community poor and starving. And we have no way of knowing how many turned, though nothing seems to indicate it was close to a majority.



What is a natural event? Was the planet that nuked themselves an example of a natural event causing the end? Or what about Ra’La and the Plenty? Or the invasion of the Omicron? Perhaps the point is not that suffering is all natural, but that it is inevitable. Whether it’s from the inherent limitations one’s born into, like in the planet that ended up polluted or it’s from circumstances that develop later on, the point is you will suffer.

Again, considering the amount of blasphemies we see, it’s pretty clear a not-insignificant amount gave in to despair. We only see 2 small settlements survive, and one of them only had a few survivors remaining. The Ancients didn’t despair or give in like the sundered did, they let their hope give rise to Zodiark. My point is, as i’ve stated numerous times now had you actually read my posts, is that without the WoL or Vrtra both places we see the final days hit would be entirely doomed. Their survival depended on 1-2 people, one of which is unsundered and the other is 9/14th. The sundered didn’t do it on their own, they had help from higher up entities.

[KariTheFox]

Sure is lucky they were bailed out by a godlike hero before 75+% of their people were dead and their civilization along with the entire rest of the world was reduced to a smoking ruin.

Yes, it was incredibly fortunate. Life is full of good fortune and happiness as much as it is full of despair. Good thing the message was never "in order to endure suffering, you must pull yourself up by your boostraps, never relying on anyone or anything else to help you through your pain."

The story of Endwalker is full of examples of people helping each other to face despair, from acts of amazing heroism to simple acts of kindness. This doesn't undermine the fact Matysa's recitation of the words of thier ancestors helped to calm an entire village. (And this was as the Final Days were still raging around them, when they believed thier leader was dead and before Vrta had revealed himself.)

[KizuyaKatogami]

The panicking people of Thavnair, remembering the words of thier ancestors as the Final Days were happening around them:



So, yes. I think the message of "learn to live with suffering and despair, as it is a natural part of life and a constant companion" would go over quite well and help to calm the situation, since that's what actually happened.

You’re completely missing the point. This is just after they had been saved by the WoL and a dragon lmao. Not only that, but considering i believe it was the radiant that even told that lady to calm down and it was completely ignored and she turned anyways. So no, i don’t see any proof whatsoever they would have. It took a dragon showing up just to save Matsya and the baby. This is all just proving my point. They would have been nowhere were it not for the WoL, so it’s a bit of a stretch to say things like, “oh, the sundered endured it all, so much better than the ancients.” When it’s very clear they didnt.