Critique of Endwalker Characters

[Ironthorne]

Also I just want to say, my god, this thread is PRECISELY why I and many others think that toxic positivity is a real thing LOL! Listing all of the examples down:

I find it funny how you still seem to think you made a discovery of an already well-known problem. What do you want exactly? Internet clouts?

Also, the posts you quoted are just people disagreeing with OP and expressing it in their own way. Sometimes people may sound aggressive, but so what? Are they...too negative for you?

[Kozh]

I never got the impression of him having a "photographic" memory – he's read a lot, he knows a lot and clearly has a good memory but the closest to being photographic is that he had long enough to read and memorise the temper-reversing spell before the computer crashed. It could have been a fairly simple but precise phrase, or one that was easy enough to read and recall in the time he had to look at it

No, the computer was processing the node memory for max. a night, and then it went self destruct in a matter of seconds. One or two minutes tops. And the whole research was a very long wall of text. There's no way he could memorize perfectly to be able to replicate the spell just reading once if he has no photographic memory.

And idk, spell or anything related to aether are always depicted as hard to learn, with full aetherology science behind it, in ffxiv world. If it was that easy, cure for tempering can be learned by any mage. Spells in ffxiv doesn't work by incantation mechanism like other fantasy anyway.

But thanks for reminding me of that big-ass Float spell for another example of g'raha op-ness, aside from being able to tank and heal as well.

[LaughingBanana]

I agree that Endwalker did not resonate with me as much as previous expansion... well, mostly Shadowbringer.

The final area of Endwalker when the Scions "died" one by one, the impact just wasn't there for me because I know that they would return through some contrivances, so the "stakes" just weren't there.

[Floortank]

While I generally enjoyed playing through Endwalker’s story, a lot of the longstanding cast members of the game fell quite flat this time around. There were significant problems in their behavior throughout the plot, feeling rather vestigial. Simply put, it is time to trim the fat. Scions like Y’shtola, Urianger, and Thancred have become completely stagnant and their continued presence serves more as an annoyance rather than adding anything significant to the game.

They were flat in Endwalker, I agree, but I wouldn't pin it on the characters, just on the writing. Natsuko was able to make the characters vibrant and appealing in Shadowbringers. They argued with one another. They differed often before agreeing. They had very organic moments of coming together. They each went through something that was hard to overcome, each one was tested to the brink and had to show some mettle in order to keep going. Each of the Scions was at risk, most of all, and putting their everything on the line, and the stakes felt very, very high.

And while you might argue that some of that was also true of Endwalker, it really all just felt like running down a checklist of things that worked well in Shadowbringers, so they had to do them again. Except, they didn't remember to put the Scions in peril until Ultima Thule. And the Scions never disagreed or differed about anything in Endwalker. They were all running off the same idea at all times, like a hivemind, making them just samey puppets of the script. They had no organic moments together. No Y'shtola butt slapping Urianger. No Urianger feigning shock when Thancred reveals he wasn't sleeping through their lectures. No Alisaie making fun of Urianger's inability to swim. There wasn't a single living, breathing moment in the Endwalker storyline, where the Scions differed or did something spontaneous and outside of expectation--the way your favorite people do in real life all the time. It happened continuously in Shadowbringers, and if it happened at all in Endwalker, it was simply just a checklist rehash of what worked in Shadowbringers.

I would not boot those three in particular because I don't see anything wrong with them, per se. I *would* omit them from the story because the Scions' stories all finished in Shadowbringers, and they had nothing left to do in Endwalker, nothing new to say, and no reason to be there. They should have let them move on in 6.0's final scenes where they're derping around in Mor Dhona, and the story in Endwalker should have used Estinien, Gaius, Fordola, maybe some new characters.

And please for the love of god, get rid of Krile already. She has always been a bland character, one the author treats like they're vastly more interesting and important than they really are. Only Stormblood Lyse exceeds Krile milligrams of verbal Ambien.

[Avidria]

I mean I'm down for new characters but also just... Disagree with most of the points in the OP. Other than Hythlodaeus. He is the best.

...I do however agree with the person above me saying Krile is a fairly bland character. Like, I like her well enough, but she just kinda seems to be There most of the time and the only stand out thing about her in Endwalker was how irritating it was when she kept (very obviously) hiding what was happening to her.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Sorry for the public admittance of your terrible attitude.

This is criticism done properly. I welcome the discussion.

I think what Ittybitty was saying was that they don't share OP's opinion.

And to be honest, although I can agree that Y'shtola, Urianger, Thancred didn't evolve much these days, Meteion and Hermes didn't have enough screen time before becoming bad guys, I disagree on pretty much everything as well. Hades and Hythlodaeus (in Elpis) are monolithic characters that pretty much annoyed me. G'raha is at the beginning of his character development arc, Alphinaud and Alisaie are continuously growing, and that part about the sage aesthetic was not related to OP's own thread...

I do agree we may need to talk about the characters and their development, but I don't think OP's right.

[Rilifane]

I've never been terribly fond of the Scions but with EW, they just reached a new low for me.
I feel like for the screentime they have and the time they spend around us, there just isn't happening enough with or to them. Their goals are some grand, overarching ideals like "world peace" that are safe and universal and everyone can have them. Their motivation generally "let's work for a better tomorrow, everyone!". Again, safe and universal good guy motivation.
Their personal struggles are there but they've never been explored deeply enough. Lyse has a messed up past and had to endure quite a bit but none of it is really shown as consequential and thus, she is bland. It's wasted potential.
Their personalities are stereotype and clear cut to tick specific boxes (the smart guy, the ditzy girl, the sassy girl etc.) and they never really strayed from them.

I found many side characters to be much more interesting because they may have had less screentime but had a very clear personality, flaws, struggles and character developement.
Emmanellain is hated by many and I'm not exactly fond of him either but he started out as the careless, lazy and spoiled "I have it so bad because I'm the 2nd son, boo hoo" that shied away from any form of responsibility but at the same time wanted recognition and be someone meaningful and important. Throughout the HW story he got admonished plenty of times, he made a lot of dumb mistakes that cost others and nearly got his servant killed and it took several tries but he ultimately accepted it all, he matured and became a lot more responsible and is now commanding Camp Dragonhead without being a completely different person. He was flawed, he learned his lessons and he grew from them.


Estinien had an incredible character developement. He was vengeful, taciturn and reserved at first, got into plenty of arguments with Ysayle and if not for the company of the WoL and Alphinaud, they would've tried to kill each other and he always came across as so focused on revenge and bloodshed that he didn't live; as if he only lived for killing Nidhogg and when he did, he might as well just die. Then he gradually learned there is a different side to this war, saw something akin to family in Alphinaud again and grudgingly worked with his former enemy that was responsible for killing many of his countrymen and ultimately respected her to the point of visiting Azys Ly to pay his respects to her.
His thirst for revenge got him turned into Nidhoggs host. He attacked his own city, killed his own countrymen and was willing to kill himself to end it. And after that he took it as a second chance, helped the WoL from the shadows, traveled the world to keep an eye of things, forged bonds with dragons and whenever he appeared he seemed to have lightened up a bit, cared for Alphinaud more openly, showed a sense of humor. He stood his ground when he disagreed with something or just took matters into his own hands because he simply isn't the type for lengthy diplomatic sessions. He had some views others disagreed with and it was fine, he had some problematic traits and it was also fine.

Aymeric was probably met with more resistance than anyone else, people openly insulted, physically attacked and despised him, making him responsible for all their suffering, his actions ultimately resulted in Haurchefant's death which was both a friend to the WoL and the son of the house he had the best relations with and as shown in the caster quests his struggle is far from over and he constantly has to face repercussions. His character didn't make a 180 but he showed very different sides of him throughout the story from late ARR to now and I his circumstances, struggles and achievements compelling enough that I didn't mind him already being one of the more "finished" characters. How he dealt with everything, how he reacted to something etc.

Hien, Yugiri and Gosetsu made for an interesting trio throughout the SB arc and I enjoyed their interactions, their different views and approaches while at the same time being fiercely loyal to each other, they made their mistakes but also had some creative solutions, they showed many different sides to them and I could've easily have the entire SB expansion focus on Doma with them as the expansion main cast and enjoy it.
I loved the Elpis trio for the same reason. They were just alive, they were truly individual from one another but at the same time worked well as a group.
I liked the difference between Emet being all "You! You are suspicious and I'll watch your every step. You hide something and I will discover what it is, I will prove that you are dangerous and shouldn't be here" and Hythlodaeus "You're strange, but I like you. You hide something but I don't think you're dangerous, so I'll just trust you and see where it leads".
I also liked Raubahn's conflicts and how they affected him.

They've shown in ShB that they can have the Scions have egoistical goals and conflicts without making them any less of a Scion but it was brief and the majority of the screentime throughout the entire MSQ they were the classic good guys with different flavors, very little character developement, very little conflics and struggles that noticeable affected them for longer than the quest duration, next to no truly personal motivation or inner demons.
Y'shtola makes some funny comments, I like Krile well enough, Urianger has these wonderful awkward moments, the twins often banter and that's all well and good. But at the end of the day, they're just one-liners and don't make me invested in them as characters.

[Merrigan]

I'm having a little trouble understanding why the initial post is so soft on Alisaie. As much as I like the character, she's definitely one of the scions with the most cliché writing.

In terms of characters, the ones I really had a problem with were Thancred and G'raha Tia.

Thancred has become... Boring since Shb. I didn't really like the "good looking guy who flirts with everything" side of him; I liked the fact that they made him mature through Rin. But in Endwalker I felt like I was faced with a character with no personality, except for the relationship with Minfilia/Rin. They should be able to give him a new start, something that would give him future aspirations.

I may be a little harsh on this point though: after a whole extension focusing on him, it's normal that he's a bit more left aside.


For G'raha Tia... Stop, please. This inferiority complex, from someone who saved a world from being lost is just... Pathetic.I already hated the fact that they justify his heroism by his will to imitate us during Shb. I was really happy that he joined the Scions, but if he's going to suck up to us all the time...

I pray that the writers will give him a new lease on life. It would be nice, for example, if the WOL were forced to do something morally questionable that would bring us down from our pedestal in G'raha's eyes. So that he would find a real reason to fight, other than being a glorified lapdog.

(Yes, I'm a bit salty about it).

I almost forgot about Y'shtola. A character I love because of his caustic, ironic side. She is sometimes completely incapable of handling social relationships, and that's refreshing compared to the other Scions.

But (there is a "but"): maybe it's time to really sacrifice her OR stop pretending? Once was cool; twice is okay; three is too much. Especially knowing that the writers are very obviously resistant to the idea of killing another character, which hinders a bit the emotional lift that's supposed to happen every time.

[Izar_Chillen]

You make some great points OP , I appreciate the discussion

Ref Shtola

There was backlash in 2.0 when they "killed" Princess Peach in Uldah , reverted because they didn't stick to their beliefs and strengths, and altered the intended plot thus changing her destiny, post MSQ.

Now to Shtola , have you seen the front page of the reddit mainsub ? Every week there are at least two commission adverts masquerading as "fan" art , of Shtola that are ALWAYS heavily upvoted, especially if said art has very generous proportions in certain areas of her body

Now try to imagine if they dared kill "mommy/goddess/mainwaifu/i'd simp for you: shtola" ( you should see what else they call her on the main sub , its depressing) there would be a massive main forum/twitter meltdown.


And to be honest , that's all it would be , just a few hundred rage/cry/omgkillmyself" twitter threads a few maybe would unsub for a month but that would be it , whilst the rest of us adults would just move along and the plot continues without her


They just cant bare the thought of upsetting a small subset of very vocal social media addicts .

[Conundrum]

You make some great points OP , I appreciate the discussion

Ref Shtola

There was backlash in 2.0 when they "killed" Princess Peach in Uldah , reverted because they didn't stick to their beliefs and strengths, and altered the intended plot thus changing her destiny, post MSQ.

Now to Shtola , have you seen the front page of the reddit mainsub ? Every week there are at least two commission adverts masquerading as "fan" art , of Shtola that are ALWAYS heavily upvoted, especially if said art has very generous proportions in certain areas of her body

Now try to imagine if they dared kill "mommy/goddess/mainwaifu/i'd simp for you: shtola" ( you should see what else they call her on the main sub , its depressing) there would be a massive main forum/twitter meltdown.


And to be honest , that's all it would be , just a few hundred rage/cry/omgkillmyself" twitter threads a few maybe would unsub for a month but that would be it , whilst the rest of us adults would just move along and the plot continues without her


They just cant bare the thought of upsetting a small subset of very vocal social media addicts .

Their complete lack of guts to kill any main characters has seriously started to hurt my enjoyment and opinion of the game. It was ignorable up until Endwalker...but the fake death conga line underlined, highlighted, and shined a spotlight on it.

Now it feels as if there are no stakes or consequences to anything.

Game of Thrones was awesome BECAUSE they chopped off Ned Starks head. (shut up about S8)

The Walking Dead was awesome BECAUSE Sophia was killed.

But everyone knows Waifu and GQ model aren't dying, neither are the kids.