When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[Vyrerus]

That’s a weird way to say saved all life. And once again whose worshipping Her rn exactly?

Hydaelyn didn't save jack. She set us up to save jack. We saved jack. If she coulda saved jack, she would've. She couldn't so she gave us some massive prep.

[Theodric]

I wouldn't consider the deliberate eradication of one's own species to be the equivalent of 'saving all life'. Especially when the entity responsible for the act of genocide was possessed of knowledge that could have been exploited in order to genuinely find a way to at least make a genuine attempt to save everybody.

There's humans in our world who are possessed by the same thinking patterns as Hermes and Venat yet that doesn't mean that it would be justified for humanity as a whole to be wiped out to make way for something different based on the unrealistic expectations of self-sabotaging and self-loathing saboteurs.

As an example, I don't believe that extremism is required in order to carve what they declare to be a better path forward. I'm sure there's many who, for example, might hypothetically support the destruction of oil and gas pipelines in the name of the 'greater good' only to proclaim that anyone dying from the realistic consequences of lack of access to heat and food in the aftermath is but an 'unfortunate but necessary sacrifice'.

Bringing it back to FFXIV, specifically, we're talking about the elimination of an entire species. Just as the Sundered weren't keen to roll over and die so too can the same be said of the Unsundered. Neither had any obligation to perish on behalf of the other, yet it is precisely because of Venat's actions that they were forced into a such a situation in the first place.

[KizuyaKatogami]

That’s a weird way to say saved all life. And once again whose worshipping Her rn exactly?

She didn’t really save all life considering peoples souls were literally erased in the final days now did she? Considering the way the story portrays her, yshtola and even us apparently worship her as a hero.

[EaraGrace]

Hydaelyn didn't save jack. She set us up to save jack. We saved jack. If she coulda saved jack, she would've. She couldn't so she gave us some massive prep.

She gave us one hell of a good start with the blessing and the crystals of light. She earned a pretty big W.

I wouldn't consider the deliberate eradication of one's own species to be the equivalent of 'saving all life'. Especially when the entity responsible for the act of genocide was possessed of knowledge that could have been exploited in order to genuinely find a way to at least make a genuine attempt to save everybody.

I logged out in Sharlayan the other night I believe. Pretty sure I saw humans there.

There's humans in our world who are possessed by the same thinking patterns as Hermes and Venat yet that doesn't mean that it would be justified for humanity as a whole to be wiped out to make way for something different based on the unrealistic expectations of self-sabotaging and self-loathing saboteurs.

Just dripping with loaded language here. And I’d say these heroes were justified if they were working to save the people they supposedly were “sabotaging.”

As an example, I don't believe that extremism is required in order to carve what they declare to be a better path forward. I'm sure there's many who, for example, might hypothetically support the destruction of oil and gas pipelines in the name of the 'greater good' only to proclaim that anyone dying from the realistic consequences of lack of access to heat and food in the aftermath is but an 'unfortunate but necessary sacrifice'.

If the options were to be the complete destruction of the biosphere or the sabotaging of those pipelines with an understanding that in some way it may cause increased suffering for humanity at large, I’d say the latter isn’t just morally right, its a moral imperative. To damn future generations out of desire to avoid suffering in your own life is selfishness. And let me be clear that I don’t believe it’s a “necessary sacrifice.” It’s the distinction between doing and allowing harm, not to mention the fact that action can be taken to mitigate those consequences as well.

Bringing it back to FFXIV, specifically, we're talking about the elimination of an entire species. Just as the Sundered weren't keen to roll over and die so too can the same be said of the Unsundered. Neither had any obligation to perish on behalf of the other, yet it is precisely because of Venat's actions that they were forced into a such a situation in the first place.

No matter how many times its claimed there’s nothing to suggest they are different species entirely. If that was the case, then Emets bloodline suddenly has a lot more problems there. And before we reignite that conversation over the distinction between Sundered and Unsundered let’s all recognize that categories often have sub categories.

She didn’t really save all life considering peoples souls were literally erased in the final days now did she? Considering the way the story portrays her, yshtola and even us apparently worship her as a hero.

Yes, I’m sure those souls would’ve been perfectly fine as Meteion flooded the world with Dynamis and cracked the star open like an egg.

[redheadturk]

Yes, I’m sure those souls would’ve been perfectly fine as Meteion flooded the world with Dynamis and cracked the star open like an egg.

Except #1 the Unsundered didn't turn, and #2 if the third sacrifice had been allowed to go through [which I still believe was moral to do because if it comes down to us against another group of lives, and the allowing of that other group to live dooms those I love, I am saving those I love, thank you very much] Zodiark would have kept them safe for at *least* the 12 thousand years that He did, so they would have, with the correct information in hand had Venat told them what was up had plenty of time to solve the Meteion problem. To save one's own loved ones, even at the cost of other's lives, is a perfectly moral and understandable thing to do.

Of course, given the chance my WoL would likely have spilled the beans himself, he's the sort not to give anyone, the Ancients included, up for lost.

[Jandor]

She didn’t really save all life considering peoples souls were literally erased in the final days now did she? Considering the way the story portrays her, yshtola and even us apparently worship her as a hero.

There are backups on the shards.

[Rulakir]

I saw this image and it reminded me of this thread. :P



Since it bears repeating, Venat is never once chastised by anyone for what she did. She has a couple of lines of dialog where she expresses some amount of self-awareness, but that's it. She also didn't have a plan that went beyond getting someone to Ultima Thule and essentially hoping for the best, which isn't sufficient justification for an act as drastic as the sundering. The sundered were also far more susceptible to the effects of the Final Days, so being able to more easily interact with dynamis was not without devastating side effects. Not to mention attributing Venat to saving life is laughable. Trillions of lives were lost as a result of her actions and trillions more were on the table had her dice roll on the WoL not worked out.

As for the Ancients, the issue is that their entire civilization is being judged on the basis of a slice of life in one facility dedicated to creation magicks and the twisted interpretation of one man who decided if everything can't live then nothing should live. It's brought up that neither the sundered nor our own cultures are any better, in many ways arguably worse, so if that's the metric by which we determine who gets to survive or not then we all fail. You can not like what they did, sure, I don't like a lot of what current humanity does, but that's a far cry from saying they deserved to be wiped out because of it.

[DPZ2]

So, 38 pages of notes from a variety of sources, on a variety of issues ...

A couple of questions I had as reading. Perhaps there are direct answers?

1) The Final Days for the Ancients ... exactly how long between the eradication of memory for the Triad and their beginning? Days? Years? Decades? Millenia?

2) Is there a direct reference to the cause? In other words, where, exactly, is The Cause explicitly explained/invoked? I didn't come across that yet, and I'm sitting at the final trial right now. All of those other fine civilizations seemed to destroy themselves quite nicely without intervention.

3) Who would have believed Venat's recounting of the days before the eradication of memory for the Triad? Since the Ancients cannot detect dynamis, how would they verify the validity of any warning, given that the Triad could swear it never happened?

4) What references do you all have that Zodiark would actually have surrendered "souls" (with newly created bodies) back to the Ancients? Is there a document or cut-scene where Zodiark promises to do so if he only gets a "bit more Aether"? Could it be the desperate logic of traumatized people who are now dependent on a God-like being? I'd want to read the actual contract myself before assuming it was more than what every other Primal we've ever encountered desires rather than wishful thinking.

[Jandor]

1) The Final Days for the Ancients ... exactly how long between the eradication of memory for the Triad and their beginning? Days? Years? Decades? Millenia?

We don't know. Probably not that long, in the grand scheme of things.

2) Is there a direct reference to the cause? In other words, where, exactly, is The Cause explicitly explained/invoked? I didn't come across that yet, and I'm sitting at the final trial right now. All of those other fine civilizations seemed to destroy themselves quite nicely without intervention.

The Final Days? Dynamis powered magic, used by the Meteia.

3) Who would have believed Venat's recounting of the days before the eradication of memory for the Triad? Since the Ancients cannot detect dynamis, how would they verify the validity of any warning, given that the Triad could swear it never happened?

Venat seems to think it's plausible she'd be believed, but that it would incite panic and in-fighting rather than rallying together and fighting back.

4) What references do you all have that Zodiark would actually have surrendered "souls" (with newly created bodies) back to the Ancients? Is there a document or cut-scene where Zodiark promises to do so if he only gets a "bit more Aether"? Could it be the desperate logic of traumatized people who are now dependent on a God-like being? I'd want to read the actual contract myself before assuming it was more than what every other Primal we've ever encountered desires rather than wishful thinking.

We don't know. With Elidibus being the heart and all, it seems plausible Zodiark would give them back, or at least as many as He can. I'd assume whatever is sacrificied has to be of roughly equal value to whatever is released though.

[DPZ2]

With Elidibus being the heart and all, it seems plausible Zodiark would give them back, or at least as many as He can. I'd assume whatever is sacrificied has to be of roughly equal value to whatever is released.

Thanks for the reply.

I was under the impression that Elidibus was no longer a part of Zodiark at that point (which was the Tragedy of Elidibus). I'm pretty sure every Primal I've encountered has desired more Aether than they currently possess, so that contract would really look good about now.