Mystic Knight (Magi) A potential new job and how it could work

[BaconBits]

Still waiting on a whip class for the sole purpose of cosplaying characters like Ivy, the Belmonts, and Indiana Jones.

[jon041065]

I imagine hardly at all.



It did get embolden from Rune Fencer. But even still, DRK also says hi. And SAM and GNB loom in the background. The only element a magic-swordsman job can't use at this point is water (*furtively glances at Tidus*).

If you're referring to Embolden from XI then it shares the name but not the same ability/spell. Embolden would only affect the enhancing magic spell on you alone. Yes rune fencer had gambit but then that's more similar to trick attack and chain stratagem.

DRK looks a little like a battle mage but doesn't play like one. Sam even less so and gnb only in the sense that you're putting your aether into the cartridges. RDM does in a way have the "empowering weapon with magic" thing but it doesn't change how the job plays and only increases the damage of your melee weaponskills.

I would like a job that's more in the style of WoW's enhance shaman or TOR's jedi shadow/sith assassin. A job that does look like a battle mage but also plays like one.

[SeverianLyonesse]

If you're referring to Embolden from XI then it shares the name but not the same ability/spell. Embolden would only affect the enhancing magic spell on you alone. Yes rune fencer had gambit but then that's more similar to trick attack and chain stratagem.

That's not much of a difference, especially since XI was not as "party-centric" as XIV.

DRK looks a little like a battle mage but doesn't play like one. Sam even less so and gnb only in the sense that you're putting your aether into the cartridges. RDM does in a way have the "empowering weapon with magic" thing but it doesn't change how the job plays and only increases the damage of your melee weaponskills.

DRK is basically a spiritual successor to Rune Fencer, with an emo coat of paint. And I've seen people state that the devs have referred to SAM and/or GNB as kind of "the mystic knight class," although I admit I have no sources for that. They certainly satisfy that job fantasy for me, anyway.

I would like a job that's more in the style of WoW's enhance shaman or TOR's jedi shadow/sith assassin. A job that does look like a battle mage but also plays like one.

Again, I don't really see what any sort of "elemental imbuement" job would add to the game. Elemental typing is completely aesthetic, so the ability to switch between them would be empty spectacle with little to no influence on gameplay or job design. And, again, we already sort of have that in several forms:

* SAM imbues its blade with moon, flowers, or snow, and the moon/flowers skills have effects you want to keep up. This one feels the closest to what we will ever get for "Mystic Knight", and even moreso if we ever get that dropped Yukikaze ability that could have a slowing effect to it.
* GNB has magic cartridges that you build up and spend on big fire explosions. It's like en-fire, but in XIV fire = big damage.
* DRK has an "enchanted blade" phase with Edge of Darkness/Shadow.
* RDM, as you observed, effectively has "En-Spells" but it's aesthetically blood magic.
* PLD is kind of an En-Holy sword job but it's easily the weakest analogue of the bunch.

I just don't see what people see in this job proposal. The *only* thing that you or anyone says makes these jobs *not* feel like a Battlemage/Mystic Knight is that they don't have a suite of elemental imbuement powers. But we already have jobs that imbue their blades with: Ice, Fire, Darkness, Blood, and Holy magic. And they all feel quite distinct. Having a job that can "imbue it all" would add precisely nothing to the game and in fact just feel like it lacks a clear identity compared to the jobs we currently have, while simultaneously diluting their uniqueness.

[jon041065]

That's not much of a difference, especially since XI was not as "party-centric" as XIV.

WHAT!? XI was faaaar more party based than XIV is. Not even remotely close. You needed a party/alliance to get things done in that game 90% of the time if not more. The devs had to add the trust system where you can use them in almost all content to make up for the declining party base because the game was designed to be mostly played in a party.

DRK is basically a spiritual successor to Rune Fencer, with an emo coat of paint. And I've seen people state that the devs have referred to SAM and/or GNB as kind of "the mystic knight class," although I admit I have no sources for that. They certainly satisfy that job fantasy for me, anyway.

Besides DRK having Dark Mind/Missionary, totally disagree with you there. GNB and SAM obviously does not tick off the "mystic knight" box for myself and plenty of others.

Again, I don't really see what any sort of "elemental imbuement" job would add to the game. Elemental typing is completely aesthetic, so the ability to switch between them would be empty spectacle with little to no influence on gameplay or job design. And, again, we already sort of have that in several forms:

* SAM imbues its blade with moon, flowers, or snow, and the moon/flowers skills have effects you want to keep up. This one feels the closest to what we will ever get for "Mystic Knight", and even moreso if we ever get that dropped Yukikaze ability that could have a slowing effect to it.
* GNB has magic cartridges that you build up and spend on big fire explosions. It's like en-fire, but in XIV fire = big damage.
* DRK has an "enchanted blade" phase with Edge of Darkness/Shadow.
* RDM, as you observed, effectively has "En-Spells" but it's aesthetically blood magic.
* PLD is kind of an En-Holy sword job but it's easily the weakest analogue of the bunch.

I just don't see what people see in this job proposal. The *only* thing that you or anyone says makes these jobs *not* feel like a Battlemage/Mystic Knight is that they don't have a suite of elemental imbuement powers. But we already have jobs that imbue their blades with: Ice, Fire, Darkness, Blood, and Holy magic. And they all feel quite distinct. Having a job that can "imbue it all" would add precisely nothing to the game and in fact just feel like it lacks a clear identity compared to the jobs we currently have, while simultaneously diluting their uniqueness.

RDM does in a way have the "empowering weapon with magic" thing but it doesn't change how the job plays and only increases the damage of your melee weaponskills.

You miss this part? None of the examples you gave impact how those jobs play. RDM is the closest thing. DRK and SAM just have moves that have the visual but there's no other form of those attacks that are "not magic empowered" to compare them to. There's no choice of which element to use to. No variation in the attack based on the element. NIN once had something close based on which poison you used but that just impacted one ability from what I remember. The one that would stun or silence depending on the poison.

[SeverianLyonesse]

WHAT!? XI was faaaar more party based than XIV is. Not even remotely close. You needed a party/alliance to get things done in that game 90% of the time if not more.

XIV is defined by and balanced around party composition and roles. XI *needed* parties for some content, but the jobs themselves were not designed around a specific party structure. If I were to be more clear, in XI parties were defined by the jobs. In XIV, jobs are defined by the parties.

Besides DRK having Dark Mind/Missionary, totally disagree with you there. GNB and SAM obviously does not tick off the "mystic knight" box for myself and plenty of others.

Can't help ya there if you can't pull yourself out of the gutters of rote traditionalism.

You miss this part? None of the examples you gave impact how those jobs play. RDM is the closest thing. DRK and SAM just have moves that have the visual but there's no other form of those attacks that are "not magic empowered" to compare them to. There's no choice of which element to use to. No variation in the attack based on the element. NIN once had something close based on which poison you used but that just impacted one ability from what I remember. The one that would stun or silence depending on the poison.

ELEMENTS DO NOT DO ANYTHING IN THIS GAME. What you are asking for is pointless, and the tissue-thin distinction between what you seem to want and what we do have:

* Full-on enchanted blade phase (DRK)
* Enchanted versions of attacks (RDM)
* Enhanced modular attack weaving/bursting (GNB)
* Elemental attack swapping (SAM)

Does not seem to justify the inclusion of yet another magic-sword job in this game.

Also, now that you mention NIN, just play NIN's mudra system if you want an elemental generalist.

[jon041065]

XIV is defined by and balanced around party composition and roles. XI *needed* parties for some content, but the jobs themselves were not designed around a specific party structure. If I were to be more clear, in XI parties were defined by the jobs. In XIV, jobs are defined by the parties.

Yep you're right. XI didn't have the tank role, healer role, melee dps to perform the skillchain, magic damage dealers to magic burst, and support jobs. /s
And a party was needed for MOST content not "some".

ELEMENTS DO NOT DO ANYTHING IN THIS GAME. What you are asking for is pointless, and the tissue-thin distinction between what you seem to want and what we do have:

* Full-on enchanted blade phase (DRK)
* Enchanted versions of attacks (RDM)
* Enhanced modular attack weaving/bursting (GNB)
* Elemental attack swapping (SAM)

Does not seem to justify the inclusion of yet another magic-sword job in this game.

Also, now that you mention NIN, just play NIN's mudra system if you want an elemental generalist.

So the reworked SMN doesn't have abilities that change depending on which primal you had just summoned? This is the kind of mechanic that we are asking for in a melee job or tank.

[Tulzscha]

Again, I don't really see what any sort of "elemental imbuement" job would add to the game. Elemental typing is completely aesthetic, so the ability to switch between them would be empty spectacle with little to no influence on gameplay or job design.

It could always be made to work for a job.

For example say you put a water debuff on an enemy then hit it with ice causing bonus dmg + a stun, or you apply an ice debuff then hit it with fire causing another reaction, etc.

Another example: Elemental buffs on weapons could change your abilities. One attack enhanced with fire could apply a dot while the same attack enhanced with lightning could be an aoe, a water buff heals, ice deals burst dmg, or an earth buff boosts defense / reduces enemy dmg.

Then you could combine them to have fire+lightning spread your dot(s), fire+water applies a hot, lightning+ice deals bigger aoe dmg, and so on.

Yet another example: Attach resources or job gauge things to each element forcing them to be used however you want, this could be done in many different ways.

It almost sounds to me like you're stuck in the idea that jobs can only be designed bottom-up (mechanics first) while top-down design (aesthetics/concept first) is just as viable and imo a lot more fun and interesting. Aesthetics can go a long way toward inspiring mechanics.

[SeverianLyonesse]

It could always be made to work for a job.

For example say you put a water debuff on an enemy then hit it with ice causing bonus dmg + a stun, or you apply an ice debuff then hit it with fire causing another reaction, etc.

Another example: Elemental buffs on weapons could change your abilities. One attack enhanced with fire could apply a dot while the same attack enhanced with lightning could be an aoe, a water buff heals, ice deals burst dmg, or an earth buff boosts defense / reduces enemy dmg.

Then you could combine them to have fire+lightning spread your dot(s), fire+water applies a hot, lightning+ice deals bigger aoe dmg, and so on.

Yet another example: Attach resources or job gauge things to each element forcing them to be used however you want, this could be done in many different ways.

It almost sounds to me like you're stuck in the idea that jobs can only be designed bottom-up (mechanics first) while top-down design (aesthetics/concept first) is just as viable and imo a lot more fun and interesting. Aesthetics can go a long way toward inspiring mechanics.

This is just the direction blue mage is going. And even if it were a unique concept (which it isn't, thanks to BLU), I do not see anything of an "elemental combo" gimmick like this not being a limited job thanks to the deprioritization of debuffs.

Also, for the umpteenth time, we already have SAM effectively doing this kind of "elemental buffs change your abilities," just with "elements" that are more subtle than a basic b elemental wheel. All you are arguing for is a slight aesthetic change toward rote traditionalism.

It doesn't matter if it is bottom-up or top-down; the idea has little to no untapped design space no matter how you frame it. I acknowledge that most jobs in XIV are top-down design--but they at least start at the top with an idea that isn't poached from and trodden to death by existing jobs. And so far the job designs haven't pigeonholed themselves into pedestrian, uninspired cliches like "dur hur all the elements."

I am not saying it can't happen. It just has so little potential to add to the job roster as opposed to other more unique and novel additions. It is the sort of "empty fanservice" concept I expect to be avoided or delayed until the devs literally have no more fresh ideas to implement and just want to coast on goodwill during maintenance.

Yep you're right. XI didn't have the tank role, healer role, melee dps to perform the skillchain, magic damage dealers to magic burst, and support jobs. /s
And a party was needed for MOST content not "some".

Hm, read again. I don't think you fully grasp what I am saying.

So the reworked SMN doesn't have abilities that change depending on which primal you had just summoned? This is the kind of mechanic that we are asking for in a melee job or tank.

So play SAM. And if that's not good enough for you then maybe stop campaigning for slight variations on things we already have to suit your basic sensibilities.

[Tulzscha]

I do not see anything of an "elemental combo" gimmick like this not being a limited job thanks to the deprioritization of debuffs.

They could just as easily be buffs or tied in to a job gauge.

we already have SAM effectively doing this kind of "elemental buffs change your abilities,"

Do we though? I don't get that vibe from SAM at all, it's more like a combo point job. Granted I've yet to fully lvl my SAM. Every job uses aether to some extent except maybe GNB, magically-enhanced attacks on any ol' job isn't quite the same as a job that's built around imbuing its weapon with an element or whatever.

I am not saying it can't happen. It just has so little potential to add to the job roster as opposed to other more unique and novel additions.

I could see that. Such as?

[SeverianLyonesse]

Do we though? I don't get that vibe from SAM at all, it's more like a combo point job. Granted I've yet to fully lvl my SAM. Every job uses aether to some extent except maybe GNB, magically-enhanced attacks on any ol' job isn't quite the same as a job that's built around imbuing its weapon with an element or whatever.

SAM's basic combo skills have Moon/Flower/Snow effects. The Moon and Flower skills have different buff enhancements you need to keep uptime on. So it already is a job with "buffs and job gauge" related to imbuing your sword. The only reason people don't see or feel it is because the "elements" are a bit more esoteric than fire/ice/lightning, but the central gimmick of SAM is collecting Sen through various elemental attacks, to imbue your sword with various iaijutsu spells.

I could see that. Such as?

I've said elsewhere that as long as there are weapon archetypes that are not used, they will likely be prioritized for new job designs. I'm just going to link to that:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5834307

As for job archetypes, I can think of a few off the top of my head that don't rehash things like a Mystic Knight would:

* Blitzballer - We don't have an "athlete" archetype yet.
* Green Mage - We don't really have a "druid" archetype anymore and Green Mage leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
* Illusionist - No "light magic" DPS yet.
* Any kind of water mage would be pretty unique since the closest we have is BLU.
* Cannoneer - People want corsairs but pistols are taken by MCH. They want a chemist job but it never seems to work. We don't have a long cast-time Aiming job yet.