Caster balance - Progression jobs vs speed

[SeiyaSoiya]

Res are virtually useless in a prog.
Sure they will help you discover mechanics, but it won't help against enrage.

If you have a KO, most of the time you better wipe due to not being able to solve the next mechanic or not being able to beat the DPS check.

Or your group is overgeared and DPS check don't matter, which is where res can become handy.
BUt since your group is overgeared, the res is just more breathing room to the healers.

I'm guessing you've never done an ultimate, where progression takes weeks and even a month, instead of the 3 days it takes to prog P3S/P4S P1
a red mage res during, say, ultimate annihition or ultimate predation is the difference between being able to see ultimate suppression now, or in a week.

[Myon88]

They don't have to touch the complexity of the job if they remove raise from rdm and smn. I would prefer SMN to be the mid damage mid utility caster, and red mage to be the high utility, lower damage job.

The problem is raise is the only utility actually worth sacrificing damage for. Do you think people actually care about magick barrier or the phoenix heal in a vacuum? They're nice, but only because they're a bonus - a package deal with the rest of the job - raise is what you actually bring those jobs for.

There are only two outcomes I foresee if raise is removed from the casters:

• Summoner and Red Mage just become shitty low damage jobs that good players will ignore. Without raise, no discerning player would volunteer to do 'mid damage' or 'lower damage' for such laughable utility.

• The casters are balanced much more tightly similar to how the melees are, black mage players complain they have to work much harder for similar damage.

[Azuri]

I'm guessing you've never done an ultimate, where progression takes weeks and even a month, instead of the 3 days it takes to prog P3S/P4S P1
a red mage res during, say, ultimate annihition or ultimate predation is the difference between being able to see ultimate suppression now, or in a week.

And have you done TEA where rez is completely useless for most prog-intensive phases since a single death inevitably leads to a party wipe shortly after?

Saying that rez is useful in lvl 70 content that lost all of it's former difficulty isn't a great argument.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Imo the "need" for a Rez Caster is purely a community mindset. Yes it is obviously nice to have a safety blanket in case your healers have had to use both Swiftcasts already, but you are shooting your BLM in the foot if you force him to SMN / RDM first only for him having to relearn a fight as BLM again, or they won't because you may not like taking longer for reclears.

Do yourself a favour - if you have a BLM in your group but want Caster Rez, drop a melee instead and run double caster.

That said, remember when Yoshida said there was a LONG debate about SMN keeping rez? Maybe speculation, but I think that debate was in relation to SMN damage. Since it kept Resurrection... that's likely why SMN got to be lower end of the dps chart. Also probably because they'd otherwise be Phys Ranged in mobility without paying the utility and mobility tax.

[Dyvid]

Why is it acceptable that casters are divided into “progression” and “post-progression” jobs?


Caster is the only role that deals with this. RPRs aren’t switching to SAM once they’ve cleared a fight. Many groups put pressure on their caster to play summoner and red mage until a fight has been mastered or at least cleared. I know there are groups that clear fights with a black mage, but many groups would prefer to have that rez for progression purposes and it puts additional pressure on players who do not enjoy those jobs.

Ranged physical pays a “ranged tax”, and while that is an entire other topic of conversation the idea behind those jobs is that their damage is in relation to their personal damage plus the damage they provide to the party. They’re essentially balanced around one another.

I think the balance team should look at this and consider removing raise from summoner and possibly red mage. It would be weird and uncomfortable at first, but the player base would eventually adjust.

Because Raise is unbalanced and needs to be fixed to where all caster have it or non have it.

[SeiyaSoiya]

And have you done TEA where rez is completely useless for most prog-intensive phases since a single death inevitably leads to a party wipe shortly after?

Saying that rez is useful in lvl 70 content that lost all of it's former difficulty isn't a great argument.

no haven't done TEA yet, but I'm pretty sure not every single mechanic in it is an instawipe if 1 single person messes up

[Azuri]

no haven't done TEA yet, but I'm pretty sure not every single mechanic in it is an instawipe if 1 single person messes up

What if I told you that it pretty much is? Mechanics in TEA happen faster than a person can get through rez black screen + animation lock and are heavily reliant on all 8 players doing the correct thing or the whole mechanic collapses. Living Liquid is full of "each player has to bait an AoE" mechanics and having only 7 people alive means there is a stray AoE murdering half the group every time. Most deaths in Limit Cut leads to a stray bait that kills half the group. A single death in BJ/CC means you've lost one of Verdict debuffs and can't resolve Gavel. Wormhole in P3 immediately turns into a complete mess of random deaths since it's based on 8 very specific baits, and is immediately followed by a very hard hitting stack. And in P4 you get to experince very fun concept of beacon player dying and immediately taking three more players with them.

Yes, you can chain rez your way through UWU. But there is a reason why UWU is considered an EX trial+ at this point.

[SeiyaSoiya]

What if I told you that it pretty much is? Mechanics in TEA happen faster than a person can get through rez black screen + animation lock and are heavily reliant on all 8 players doing the correct thing or the whole mechanic collapses. Living Liquid is full of "each player has to bait an AoE" mechanics and having only 7 people alive means there is a stray AoE murdering half the group every time. Most deaths in Limit Cut leads to a stray bait that kills half the group. A single death in BJ/CC means you've lost one of Verdict debuffs and can't resolve Gavel. Wormhole in P3 immediately turns into a complete mess of random deaths since it's based on 8 very specific baits, and is immediately followed by a very hard hitting stack. And in P4 you get to experince very fun concept of beacon player dying and immediately taking three more players with them.

Yes, you can chain rez your way through UWU. But there is a reason why UWU is considered an EX trial+ at this point.

yes every major mechanic is a wipe if one person dies, even in uwu, that doesn't make rdm/smn raises useless for progression, because it's not as black and white as you seem to imply.
also really sus for you to call uwu ex-trial+ when you started playing the game on dec 2021, did you hear it from someone else or have you actually done uwu?

[Gaethan_Tessula]

also really sus for you to call uwu ex-trial+ when you started playing the game on dec 2021, did you hear it from someone else or have you actually done uwu?

Join date records first time posting on the forums, not when someone began playing FF14.

If you look up Gaethan here on the Lodestone, you'll see from my achievements that I began playing in 3.0, despite the forum "join date" being around the time of 5.0 launch. Because I didn't post on the forums until then.

Azuri has Perfect Legend, most (all?) of the Savage raid mounts, and a bunch of jobs at 90, at least. I'd find it pretty difficult to believe they literally began playing the game last December, and if they did they've clearly been very busy doing high end content.

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In regards to the main thrust of this thread, can we please stop demanding that Verraise be put on the sacrificial altar every time BLM pulls ahead of the other casters?

Verraise, meanwhile, would appear to have cost RDM next to nothing, historically; rather, it simply entered both Stormblood and Shadowbringers undertuned before leaving those respective expansions neck-and-neck with BLM and SMN for rDPS barely over a percent behind SMN despite being considered the easier, more reliable, and more utility-packed job. Today, it leads over SMN and all physical Physical Ranged, for instance despite Verraise.

Raise is not holding RDM back from BLM numbers. Being designed as a more support-ish, superficially mobile (BLM is actually shockingly mobile now), and superficially simpler job is. This will not change if rez is deleted and some other utility is added to replace it. Especially if that utility is actually unique (e.g., Refresh), and not just another mitigation cooldown.

SMN has been a very strong DPS several times in the past while still retaining Raise. I think it's current state is clearly a result of the rework and its ranged-physical DPS levels of mobility, not Raise.

The developers have aimed to put BLM on top of the DPS boards for some time now, and I don't see that changing. What BLM brings to prog is very high DPS when played competently (not perfectly, competently) that isn't dependent on how well other people are playing (no rDPS buff). That's a trade-off with the safety net of Raise. Trade-offs are not bad design.

Can we please stop demanding further homogenization of roles? Do you want the caster-DPS to be the new healers? Because that's how we got to the current state of the healers.

[Grimoire-M]

Join date records first time posting on the forums, not when someone began playing FF14.

If you look up Gaethan here on the Lodestone, you'll see from my achievements that I began playing in 3.0, despite the forum "join date" being around the time of 5.0 launch. Because I didn't post on the forums until then.

Azuri has Perfect Legend, most (all?) of the Savage raid mounts, and a bunch of jobs at 90, at least. I'd find it pretty difficult to believe they literally began playing the game last December, and if they did they've clearly been very busy doing high end content.

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In regards to the main thrust of this thread, can we please stop demanding that Verraise be put on the sacrificial altar every time BLM pulls ahead of the other casters?



Raise is not holding RDM back from BLM numbers. Being designed as a more support-ish, superficially mobile (BLM is actually shockingly mobile now), and superficially simpler job is. This will not change if rez is deleted and some other utility is added to replace it. Especially if that utility is actually unique (e.g., Refresh), and not just another mitigation cooldown.

SMN has been a very strong DPS several times in the past while still retaining Raise. I think it's current state is clearly a result of the rework and its ranged-physical DPS levels of mobility, not Raise.

The developers have aimed to put BLM on top of the DPS boards for some time now, and I don't see that changing. What BLM brings to prog is very high DPS when played competently (not perfectly, competently) that isn't dependent on how well other people are playing (no rDPS buff). That's a trade-off with the safety net of Raise. Trade-offs are not bad design.

Can we please stop demanding further homogenization of roles? Do you want the caster-DPS to be the new healers? Because that's how we got to the current state of the healers.

This. So much.