Revelation about the universe (SPOILERS)

[Picker]

Ea should have got gud, made some tomb worlds, and slept for 60 million years

[Lauront]

Truth be told, beings like the ancients or the Ea can't even begin to grasp onto the meaning of life the way we do.

I wouldn't look at it quite that way. I don't think their immortality (or rather, very long life span) was an obstacle to their steadfast resolve to prevent their own demise and the demise of their star. The ancients to me are closer to the dragons, in that both feature beings which are very long-lived and possess a host of fantastical powers and distinctly non-human traits, but nonetheless do share in some human aspects - certainly not quite human, but a mid-way to us in contrast to a more genuinely alien race like the Ea or Omicrons.

And I'd also argue they could very readily grasp this when confronted with premature demise, e.g. Elidibus in SoS:

This pain, this torment...is nothing! No more than must be suffered to deliver the world from its doom! No more than any of you malformed creatures have known!
Even should you lose all that is dear to you. Even should it cost you your life...
You bear the burden and fight on, kicking and screaming until your last breath is spent!

Emet-Selch himself only eventually decided to rest after 12k years, and only after he was satisfied the sundered remnants of his former friend were up to the task. Fandaniel even mocked both the sundered and unsundered for this attachment to life.

To make the point that they could end up in one of the Dead Ends, the game has to invoke the caricature world of the Plenty. True enough, they could end up that way given time (although as to whether it was inevitable is and will remain a matter of speculation.) But the ancients as we know them in any case are resolved to defend life as a concept and principle.

In their defense though, how would you handle knowing you would be around to witness the obliteration of our home world?

Agreed. And the ancients had an almost spiritual connection to the star, so to watch it die before their very eyes and beneath their feet, must've been traumatic in the extreme. Considering this would mean the cessation ultimately of even the cycle of life and death upon the star if taken to its conclusion. It was so badly damaged Zodiark had to restore it using many of them as fuel. Likewise, the dragons suffered watching their own star be despoiled, their ability to breed new life on their star taken from them, after enduring a senseless act of destruction that unravelled the raison d'etre of the very beings which administered it.

[Gemina]

I wouldn't look at it quite that way. I don't think their immortality (or rather, very long life span) was an obstacle to their steadfast resolve to prevent their own demise and the demise of their star. The ancients to me are closer to the dragons, in that both feature beings which are very long-lived and possess a host of fantastical powers and distinctly non-human traits, but nonetheless do share in some human aspects - certainly not quite human, but a mid-way to us in contrast to a more genuinely alien race like the Ea or Omicrons.

The ancients are closer to dragons opposed to..? Us? The comparison being made was to us, humans and mankind as it exists in FFXIV. I think what you've done is point out similarities between the Ancients and the Dragons, which is fair. Yes, they all do share some human aspects. But a lot of that has to do with as humans, we have the ability to recognize traits in others that are humane. However, something else all of these beings we witness between Elpis and Ultima Thule have in common are their extremely long lifespans, and that their respective civilizations were around for much longer than the time Etheirys has been sundured.

The game points out on several occasions the inability of our antagonists to see life as we do. It is the crucible where our conflict takes place. A fundamental block that is missing for them is indeed the short lifespans of the sundered. This serves to only confuse them, as you have pointed out with the quote from Eldibus. They just can't grasp it, when the answer is right in front of their face the whole time. In my opinion, despite their rationalization behind their actions, both Elidibus and Emet are fully aware that the genocide they desired to bring about is wrong. Their enthrallment with their God has them act in contrast to that, but the duties their seats hold in the convocation can be seen as reasons as well, just to lesser extent.

The ancient that comes to closest to having the same or similar concept of life we do is Hermes. I think if there is a comparison to make between ancient and man, he would be the best example to use. This is of course, prior to Meteion's report.

Emet-Selch himself only eventually decided to rest after 12k years, and only after he was satisfied the sundered remnants of his former friend were up to the task. Fandaniel even mocked both the sundered and unsundered for this attachment to life.

I'm not sure he decided to rest so much as we defeated him and his resolve to restore the unsundered. Ultimately, the ancients are devoted to the star and its survival. I would say Hades did finally accept his return to the star, and prior to doing so places his faith in us to defend Etheirys.

Agreed. And the ancients had an almost spiritual connection to the star, so to watch it die before their very eyes and beneath their feet, must've been traumatic in the extreme. Considering this would mean the cessation ultimately of even the cycle of life and death upon the star if taken to its conclusion. It was so badly damaged Zodiark had to restore it using many of them as fuel. Likewise, the dragons suffered watching their own star be despoiled, their ability to breed new life on their star taken from them, after enduring a senseless act of destruction that unravelled the raison d'etre of the very beings which administered it.

The ancient that had to endure this absolutely frightening fate was Venat. Armed with the knowledge of the final days, she could do nothing to stop it. Even if Meteion showed up and offered to spare Etheirys, Venat would've had to decline it. This is SOOOOO much worse than what I was talking about. My goodness! Poor, poor Venat

[Lauront]

The ancients are closer to dragons opposed to..? Us? The comparison being made was to us, humans and mankind as it exists in FFXIV. I think what you've done is point out similarities between the Ancients and the Dragons, which is fair. Yes, they all do share some human aspects. But a lot of that has to do with as humans, we have the ability to recognize traits in others that are humane. However, something else all of these beings we witness between Elpis and Ultima Thule have in common are their extremely long lifespans, and that their respective civilizations were around for much longer than the time Etheirys has been sundured.

The game points out on several occasions the inability of our antagonists to see life as we do. It is the crucible where our conflict takes place. A fundamental block that is missing for them is indeed the short lifespans of the sundered. This serves to only confuse them, as you have pointed out with the quote from Eldibus. They just can't grasp it, when the answer is right in front of their face the whole time. In my opinion, despite their rationalization behind their actions, both Elidibus and Emet are fully aware that the genocide they desired to bring about is wrong. Their enthrallment with their God has them act in contrast to that, but the duties their seats hold in the convocation can be seen as reasons as well, just to lesser extent.

But it's not just their lifespans that are the issue for them - it's the fact that the sundered are the result of fracturing their star and people and creating out of that something unrecognisable to them - different to the extent that their lifespans are significantly reduced, the loss of the ability to use creation magicks, the echo reduced in what it could do, etc. It's clear some of them, like Emet-Selch, do feel some discomfort with the rejoinings (his perspective on the sundered is suggested to have shifted over time to seeing them as nearer to child-like beings), but it is ultimately genocide in answer to the genocide of their kind, to reverse it. While the game does point to their different perspectives on life at various points, it is emphatically not doing so with Elidibus in SoS.

At that juncture, the character is trying to demoralise him, and Elidibus is reaffirming his resolve, in spite of his memory loss - the entire point here is his commitment to his people and willingness to fight to see that through to the end. Moreover, the game goes to no small amount of lengths to parallel Elidibus's resolve to the Exarch's, i.e. here:

What will you say?
1) Why me? | 2) Did you never consider other paths?
1) Crystal Exarch
Why you? Why not you? Had I chosen another, we would never have made it this far. Or do I mistake your meaning...?
2) Crystal Exarch
I did─but I chose not to walk them, thank the gods. Why ever would you ask me such a thing?
Crystal Exarch
...Elidibus spoke in similar terms, you say? How curious.
To answer your question, then, I made my choice for reasons which seemed obvious to me, but may not to any other.
There were the expectations I placed upon myself before beginning my slumber. And the expectations of those who roused me.
Of course, I had the choice to turn my back on the lot of it. But in the end, it was no choice at all.
I cherish the time I spent with you and the others. What I wouldn't give to return to those halcyon days...
Chasing ancient secrets, overcoming trial after trial with the aid of like-minded comrades...
And what remarkable comrades they were. In such company, I felt as if I were a character in the epic tales that had stirred my heart as a boy. As if my dream had come true...
It hadn't, of course, for I was no hero. Neither then nor after. Though the world to which I awakened, and the First were beset with myriad problems, I rarely knew how best to play my part.
There was, however, one thing of which I was certain: that I could not bear to let those dear to me meet a tragic end.
I'm afraid our time is up. Go.
Rest assured you haven't seen the last of me. I wouldn't dream of playing my trump card save in your presence.

This is directly paralleling Elidibus's devotion to his duty and his people. So again, I would say that both from his and Emet-Selch's own resolve, we can very readily argue that the ancients did understand life in the sense of the importance of fighting to preserve it against a premature end. Indeed, the entire Ascian struggle is to undo that end. The reason I brought up the dragons is because they're most comparable to the ancients in their span of powers, lifespan and defiance against a fate that would see them destroyed - all of which they do in spite being very long-lived beings.

As for tempering? There's a number of problems with arguing that it directed their actions in service of their cause. First and foremost is that Zodiark's tempering is the result of the power that went into his summoning (see here for where this is implied.) The primal itself lacks the usual will primals do outside of its heart, and Emet-Selch himself is able to simply deviate from that path. Zodiark's return is in service of restoring the star and returning their people. All in all, there isn't enough for me to say it's what's the driving factor in their motivations.

Based on the lore we know, their tempering consists in alignment to the primal's aether, and yes, as per Emet, a desire to spread this aspect. It can evidently degrade memory and identity if those are not actively preserved (which Emet-Selch went to great lengths to do), but in both Emet-Selch's and Elidibus's case, they are strongly characterised as driven by their duty to their people, which Emet-Selch only forgoes because he lost (he even reaffirms this at the end), and likewise for Elidibus.

The ancient that comes to closest to having the same or similar concept of life we do is Hermes. I think if there is a comparison to make between ancient and man, he would be the best example to use. This is of course, prior to Meteion's report.

I am not bringing him up here because he is not relevant to the point of the acceptance of an "inevitable end", which was the point you raised in differentiating immortal races from those which are not. On that front? He in fact struggles to see purpose in life when faced with death as its eventual companion.

I'm not sure he decided to rest so much as we defeated him and his resolve to restore the unsundered. Ultimately, the ancients are devoted to the star and its survival. I would say Hades did finally accept his return to the star, and prior to doing so places his faith in us to defend Etheirys.

Different ways of saying the same thing.

The ancient that had to endure this absolutely frightening fate was Venat. Armed with the knowledge of the final days, she could do nothing to stop it. Even if Meteion showed up and offered to spare Etheirys, Venat would've had to decline it. This is SOOOOO much worse than what I was talking about. My goodness! Poor, poor Venat

Poor poor ancients in general. The entire event was traumatic to the extent that it was seared into their memories such that even within the sundered, it can be reignited with the right trigger. Imagine then being the three survivors who didn't even have this context and then witness on top of this destruction, the fragmentation of their world and people, for reasons they were never given... it's tragic for all concerned.

[Gemina]

But it's not just their lifespans that are the issue for them - it's the fact that the sundered are the result of fracturing their star and people and creating out of that something unrecognisable to them - different to the extent that their lifespans are significantly reduced, the loss of the ability to use creation magicks, the echo reduced in what it could do, etc. It's clear some of them, like Emet-Selch, do feel some discomfort with the rejoinings (his perspective on the sundered is suggested to have shifted over time to seeing them as nearer to child-like beings), but it is ultimately genocide in answer to the genocide of their kind, to reverse it. While the game does point to their different perspectives on life at various points, it is emphatically not doing so with Elidibus in SoS

At that juncture, the character is trying to demoralise him, and Elidibus is reaffirming his resolve, in spite of his memory loss - the entire point here is his commitment to his people and willingness to fight to see that through to the end. Moreover, the game goes to no small amount of lengths to parallel Elidibus's resolve to the Exarch's, i.e. here:...



... This is directly paralleling Elidibus's devotion to his duty and his people. So again, I would say that both from his and Emet-Selch's own resolve, we can very readily argue that the ancients did understand life in the sense of the importance of fighting to preserve it against a premature end. Indeed, the entire Ascian struggle is to undo that end. The reason I brought up the dragons is because they're most comparable to the ancients in their span of powers, lifespan and defiance against a fate that would see them destroyed - all of which they do in spite being very long-lived beings.

I am definitely not denying Emet's and Elidibus' devotion to their people, and their duties. The latter in particular mirror's that of our own resolve. Not just in FFXIV, but the hero's resolve that pushes the protagonists forward in every FF game, and perhaps story telling in general. What I am attempting to point out is if the antagonists could see life as we do, i.e. from our perspective, then it removes the catalyst to our conflict. The longer vs shorter lifespans is very significant for this to take place. Both species value life to the point that they will go to extreme means to defend it, but there is also a profound attachment to the worlds they know, and lifespans are very much a part of those perspectives.

As for tempering? There's a number of problems with arguing that it directed their actions in service of their cause. First and foremost is that Zodiark's tempering is the result of the power that went into his summoning (see here for where this is implied.) The primal itself lacks the usual will primals do outside of its heart, and Emet-Selch himself is able to simply deviate from that path. Zodiark's return is in service of restoring the star and returning their people. All in all, there isn't enough for me to say it's what's the driving factor in their motivations.

Based on the lore we know, their tempering consists in alignment to the primal's aether, and yes, as per Emet, a desire to spread this aspect. It can evidently degrade memory and identity if those are not actively preserved (which Emet-Selch went to great lengths to do), but in both Emet-Selch's and Elidibus's case, they are strongly characterised as driven by their duty to their people, which Emet-Selch only forgoes because he lost (he even reaffirms this at the end), and likewise for Elidibus.

What troubles me here is Emet's incredulousness. Forsaking his own brethren, and then going on to dishonor their memory by recreating Amaurot were totally and completely beyond anything he could ever imagine himself doing. Venat and Hytholadeus expressed similar disbelief, but not to the point that it directly contradicts their actions that take place in the future. There isn't anything concrete here, and it is all just speculation. 'Desperate times, desperate measures' certainly serves to explain the summoning of Zodiark, and subsequently Hydaelyn; but Emet's theatrics on the first is something else entirely.

Elidibus is a bit more difficult for me to surmise as we don't get to interact with him during our time in Elpis along with the other three. My impression of Elidibus remains that he is steadfast and completely unwavering in his duty to his seat, but as the heart of Zodiark he is also exempt. I think it would be extremely helpful if we could see or interact with him prior to becoming emissary.

I am not bringing him up here because he is not relevant to the point of the acceptance of an "inevitable end", which was the point you raised in differentiating immortal races from those which are not. On that front? He in fact struggles to see purpose in life when faced with death as its eventual companion.

I didn't bring up Hermes to make a point of acceptance/unacceptance to an inevitable end. I brought him up because he asks the same questions we do when it comes to life. "Is there other life out there among the stars?" "Is there a purpose to living?" "What gives us the right to determine what lives or dies?" I didn't want to go too far into it, but even as Amon and the walking/talking contradiction he ultimately becomes, he remains the ancient that relates the most to us because he is exceptionally flawed. He is closer to how we are, while Venat is who we strive to be.

Poor poor ancients in general. The entire event was traumatic to the extent that it was seared into their memories such that even within the sundered, it can be reignited with the right trigger. Imagine then being the three survivors who didn't even have this context and then witness on top of this destruction, the fragmentation of their world and people, for reasons they were never given... it's tragic for all concerned.

Right here is a good reason why they can't relate to the sundered, who have come to know an entirely different way of living than the ancients. The unsundered are tragically left without a world to call home, and the sundered with the exception of Azem can never truly know the world their ancestors come from. I'm not dismissing the tragedy for everyone. I'm emphasizing that nothing could be done to avert said tragedy, even if armed to do so.

[_Koneko_]

pretty sure the reason the unsundered cannot relate to the sundered is their complete lack of empathy its why they all failed hermes's test by seeing the sundered as not even alive they failed the very criteria hermes put before emet to decide if the ancients was them self worthy of life

meteion was simply the method to which render judgement on the failed race that was the ancients erasing them from existence as they had done to so many other failed creations honestly endwalker had so much poetic justice for emet-selc sure hades may not have known he was being tested but every step of the way he was failing to prove the ancients worthy of existing

even at the very end he clung to his flawed convictions proving the ancients was unsavable



not only does emet not respect all life his also pretty suicidal by the time we met him and by admission of past emet invite his own downfall

[Kuroka]

What troubles me here is Emet's incredulousness. Forsaking his own brethren, and then going on to dishonor their memory by recreating Amaurot were totally and completely beyond anything he could ever imagine himself doing. Venat and Hytholadeus expressed similar disbelief, but not to the point that it directly contradicts their actions that take place in the future.

Hytholadeus himself said "it was so very like him" when we told him that, actually... it was his sentimental side winning over Hades' pride, it seems... While in the past they could not believe it at first, a later version of Hytholadeus that has witnessed the final days immediately believed it...

Elidibus is a bit more difficult for me to surmise as we don't get to interact with him during our time in Elpis along with the other three.

Yet. We still dont know all of it, but he said he has memories of us in Elpis when sending us back there, teasing the raids, as we know now...

What I wonder is... when he was Zodiarks heart, was he actually alone? Or, like it was at first with Fandaniel, did he still have the voices of the others in there too? And further, is it actually like that for Venat too...?



For the despair of the Ea, i still wonder about the timing... their downfall might just be Meteon reaching em, amplifying their despair...

[_Koneko_]

Hytholadeus himself said "it was so very like him" when we told him that, actually... it was his sentimental side winning over Hades' pride, it seems... While in the past they could not believe it at first, a later version of Hytholadeus that has witnessed the final days immediately believed it...


Yet. We still dont know all of it, but he said he has memories of us in Elpis when sending us back there, teasing the raids, as we know now...

What I wonder is... when he was Zodiarks heart, was he actually alone? Or, like it was at first with Fandaniel, did he still have the voices of the others in there too? And further, is it actually like that for Venat too...?



For the despair of the Ea, i still wonder about the timing... their downfall might just be Meteon reaching em, amplifying their despair...

i dunno if meteion was even needed knowing about the heat death of the universe when your immortal race and will very well live to see it is pretty terrible to a short living race like our own its more Meh because we'll be long dead by the time it happens

[Kuroka]

Still i feel its stupid, its still millions, billions, whatever many many more years till then... even if you just watch and see what kind of life will grow in the meanwhile, its a lot more to see... worst case work on dimension travel, creating your own pocked dimension, literally anything...
I feel that its at least partially her fault for drowning the universe in despair, even IF there will be always ppl like Hermes who go all "life is pointless we better should all die!", many more should find stuff that makes life worth it to them.

Well but tbf i hate the whole moral of "life without suffering looses its joy"...

[_Koneko_]

i think its more the concept that life without all the emotions are not worth living the price you pay is losing some of your humanity an utopian society is always appealing to people who never experienced such a life imagine living forever but not having any goals for such a long life span you'd be pretty much bored out of your mind heck most humans can't even handle living to like 100 now imagine being immortal across millions of years you'd pretty much run out of anything to do the ancients clearly demonstrate they are incapable of empathy with a few notable exceptions but they are an abnormality rather then the norm its implied the ancients was always heading to a dead end all meteion did was accelerate it heck you can see how incapable they are with dealing with loss and sorrow and anguish because in their flawed utopian society they didn't have those things for the most part when put to the test by hermes a test for the fitness of the ancients to be worthy of life they all failed