What's next for new jobs after Endwalker.

[ty_taurus]

This seems quite likely to suffer the same problems as other pet jobs. But even if it didn't and they managed to pull off a strict 1-to-1 mimicry with no dropped or missed actions...I'm not sure why they would insist on keeping up the illusion of a pet job with a poorly defined sense of melee and/or range distancing?

PUP was in *one* game. And it was really more of a redesign of a necromancer concept than its own clear identity. And the idea of controlling automatons is already appropriated by the MCH. There just isn't a particularly strong reason to revisit the job, especially if there are stronger alternatives.

And in this case, when considering the above points, I think some sort of enchanted mech-suit deal would kind of eclipse puppetmaster on all accounts. And I don't even think the better ideas are limited strictly to mech-suits that you wear or ride. I could easily see a job animating golems or taloses to be a stronger concept than puppetmaster as well, one that is at least more directly involved in XIV's worldbuilding and doesn't tread on MCH's toes.

Your assuming that the puppet is a literal pet and not just a part of your weapon's animation. If the puppet is treated as a weapon that you hold, whether in your hand like the example or like with Lulu, or if you held it in front of you with strings, then there's no reason that it even needs to be a pet. Just because the most obvious solution to approach jobs like Beastmaster and Puppetmaster involves a pet does not mean that's the only solution, nor the best solution. In the Geppetto example, that doll is not a "pet" that he summons to act on its own independantly from his own turns, but an extension of his attacks and spellcasting. The same is true for Lulu, and even Cait Sith who was basically playing like the Anise example by riding his moogle doll and commanding it with a megaphone.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Your assuming that the puppet is a literal pet and not just a part of your weapon's animation. If the puppet is treated as a weapon that you hold, whether in your hand like the example or like with Lulu, or if you held it in front of you with strings, then there's no reason that it even needs to be a pet. Just because the most obvious solution to approach jobs like Beastmaster and Puppetmaster involves a pet does not mean that's the only solution, nor the best solution. In the Geppetto example, that doll is not a "pet" that he summons to act on its own independantly from his own turns, but an extension of his attacks and spellcasting. The same is true for Lulu, and even Cait Sith who was basically playing like the Anise example by riding his moogle doll and commanding it with a megaphone.

I was accounting for that concept, and I still don't believe it is a very strong design choice for a job. Functionally, it has a really difficult time balancing against jobs which actually are melee or have melee phases when it is constantly "at arm's length" or further--in which case it really just wants to be a casting job. And aesthetically, I think "doll that copies your moves" is pretty lowest-effort design if we are going that route, when we could have a job designed around golems/taloses or making clones with a mirror.

While I could see some small possibility of the devs trying to adapt the job to XIV, I do not anticipate what we get actually being PUP. Like how:

* Rune Knight from XI was reworked into DRK and RDM;
* Corsair from XI was retooled to MCH;
* Bard from XI was smashed with Ranger to make BRD;
* Samurai is not a tank like in XI;
* Time Mage and Gambler were reworked into AST;
* Chemist was (heavily) retooled into SGE--or Sage was heavily retooled into something resembling an Apothecary;
* Dancer is...something else, huh?

And, at the end of the day, I really just do not like the Puppeteer job fantasy. It's kinda bland, backwater and morbid compared to more mystical or science-fiction animism, and when you start thinking more about the morbidity and how PUP was really just the devs implementing a necromancer job...don't we already kind of have something really similar to what you propose with Reaper summoning an avatar to attack for them?

[Rymi64]

I was accounting for that concept, and I still don't believe it is a very strong design choice for a job. Functionally, it has a really difficult time balancing against jobs which actually are melee or have melee phases when it is constantly "at arm's length" or further--in which case it really just wants to be a casting job. And aesthetically, I think "doll that copies your moves" is pretty lowest-effort design if we are going that route, when we could have a job designed around golems/taloses or making clones with a mirror.

While I could see some small possibility of the devs trying to adapt the job to XIV, I do not anticipate what we get actually being PUP. Like how:

* Rune Knight from XI was reworked into DRK and RDM;
* Corsair from XI was retooled to MCH;
* Bard from XI was smashed with Ranger to make BRD;
* Samurai is not a tank like in XI;
* Time Mage and Gambler were reworked into AST;
* Chemist was (heavily) retooled into SGE--or Sage was heavily retooled into something resembling an Apothecary;
* Dancer is...something else, huh?

And, at the end of the day, I really just do not like the Puppeteer job fantasy. It's kinda bland, backwater and morbid compared to more mystical or science-fiction animism, and when you start thinking more about the morbidity and how PUP was really just the devs implementing a necromancer job...don't we already kind of have something really similar to what you propose with Reaper summoning an avatar to attack for them?

I feel you're underselling the potential for a puppet master and it is very high considering you could make it a caster and still have it mimic your moves (though really could just make it a physical range). I also think that they could have both a job with golems and a puppet job as separate concepts, the job with talos's being geomancer. Could even have the mirror be its weapon.

While neither of us said we wanted them to pull from ff11 they did pull from FF11 drk with reaper so they could totally do that as well for puppet master.

So reading up on the lore of puppet master in ff11 I see the devs originally were gonna add necromancer but decided it didn't fit and instead added puppet master but I don't see any necromancer concepts inside puppet masters lore so I don't really see how it's morbid. And reusing an existing mechanic isn't bad considering one would be using it all the time while the other uses it for 4 attacks.