When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[Necrotica]

Gods I hate that cutscene so much. It's from Venat's POV so it's biased and it's clearly not a faithful retelling of events. I mean, if we're not allowed to bring up anything from ShB or Amaurot as fact because it's only "one side of the story" or "Emet's interpretation" then this should be no different. As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. There's nothing other than that cutscene with the Zodiark Cultist Strawmen group to indicate the Ancients as a whole were like that, on the contrary, we know for a fact they weren't because Venat had a following of "no small number". The question I'd like answered is what was her threshold to not sunder the world?

The Ancients were so divided over the fate of the star that Elidibus exited Zodiark to mediate. I doubt any further sacrifices were going to be made without him in the pilot's seat, which would imply Venat sundered the world in the middle of negotiations. It comes across as not everyone complied quickly enough so, F it, sundered!

Kinda sad her own POV paints her in such an unflattering light.

[EaraGrace]

Gods I hate that cutscene so much. It's from Venat's POV so it's biased and it's clearly not a faithful retelling of events. I mean, if we're not allowed to bring up anything from ShB or Amaurot as fact because it's only "one side of the story" or "Emet's interpretation" then this should be no different. As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. There's nothing other than that cutscene with the Zodiark Cultist Strawmen group to indicate the Ancients as a whole were like that, on the contrary, we know for a fact they weren't because Venat had a following of "no small number". The question I'd like answered is what was her threshold to not sunder the world?

Theres no difference in the vision and how the populace is described in regards to Zodiark. "No small number" does not indicate many.

The Ancients were so divided over the fate of the star that Elidibus exited Zodiark to mediate. I doubt any further sacrifices were going to be made without him in the pilot's seat, which would imply Venat sundered the world in the middle of negotiations. It comes across as not everyone complied quickly enough so, F it, sundered!

Elidibus' return was not due to their being a large divide, but that there was a divide at all, one that worried the Convocation. We know by the time Venats group finalize their decision to summon Hydaelyn that the Convocation was not listening to them. Clearly time passed.

[Lyth]

There is no reason the Ancients deserved to die. The fact that they did is a tragedy and not one they brought on by doing any one thing.

That is a red herring. The historically instructive question to ask is 'What were the factors that lead to Amaurot's decline and fall?'

It's not at all surprising that people are seeing hubris and decadence here, and they're a recurring theme in the fall of many great human civilizations. But you did touch on a good point. One of the biggest factors that lead to Amaurot's demise was its reliance on Creation magic. The Final Days didn't affect the Amaurotians directly. It specifically affected their Creation magic, in particular when it was used in specific areas where the celestial currents were at their weakest. This was all known at the time. They could just as easily have chosen live out their days without the convenience of Creation magic, like mere mortals do. But that would have meant sacrificing their self-perception as 'caretakers of the planet'.

There are other cracks that have shown as well. Amaurot's governance was built around an unquestioning faith in the 14 supremely powerful individuals that make up the Convocation. Obvious problems with nepotism aside, it was interesting to see how much they struggled with the concept of political dissent. It's not really surprising that a society in which conformity and obedience are demanded would struggle with emotional expression and adapting to new circumstances.

It's important to juxtapose the Ancients experiences' with Thavnair's Final Days. Here you have a society of mortals, without the grandiose power or highfalutin wisdom that Amaurot had. Unlike Amaurot, this is not simply an issue of not using a certain spell type. The Final Days corrupts not their magic, but their very flesh and souls. And yet, in the midst of all this devastation, these seemingly powerless survivors found a way to band together and overcame their feelings of despair to resist the transformation. Courage is not the absence of fear. They proved Hermes wrong in their resilience.

'Darkness abideth within every living being, and can never be cast out.
Neither reason nor faith can challenge this immutable truth.
To live is to suffer. And in suffering, find strength and purpose. And hope.'

[tokinokanatae]

They could just as easily have chosen live out their days without the convenience of Creation magic, like mere mortals do. But that would have meant sacrificing their self-perception as 'caretakers of the planet'.

Their creation magic was innate to them and the issue wasn't active use, but passive. Their fears came to life before their very eyes. It's like saying that the Final Days that attacked Thavnair could have been averted if people would have just "stopped getting scared", which I think all of us would agree if ridiculous.

Amaurot's governance was built around an unquestioning faith in the 14 supremely powerful individuals that make up the Convocation. Obvious problems with nepotism aside, it was interesting to see how much they struggled with the concept of political dissent.

While not the Convocation, we can see that there is debate about government in the Halls of Rhetoric: "No no no, my position has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of unique identity and whether or not it is retained! Rather, I posit that the reproductions of a given concept are inherently imperfect, and thus they are themselves unique, albeit in minor but significant degrees, and─most importantly─this variance is not to be condemned, but celebrated! Better that than to strive in vain for an impossible standard that, even if met, would leave us lesser for lack of diversity!" RE: the Bureau of the Architect's standards for creation approval.

I wouldn't characterize that as struggling with political dissent.

The Final Days corrupts not their magic, but their very flesh and souls. And yet, in the midst of all this devastation, these seemingly powerless survivors found a way to band together and overcame their feelings of despair to resist the transformation.

This doesn't sound unlike what the Ancients did to me. They came together and found a solution to their problem, which they then enacted.

What a lot of people seem to forget is that even since the days of Amaurot, the Ancients have not been presented as some sort of blob or an object lesson in what not to do; they have been presented as human beings. Human beings from a society with highs and lows, but people that still laugh, love, and come together in times of crisis. They didn't do anything wrong. They handled the Finals Days as well as any society could be expected to handle the Final Days.

The answer was already given in Shadowbringers: it doesn't matter if the Shards ARE "objectively inferior" in most ways to the Ancients--this is not a moral judgment, mind you, but a hypothesis--they still have the right to live and oppose the Ascians. You don't need to then look for reasons why "the Sundered people are ACTUALLY superior" because they survived. It doesn't matter. It's not about superior/inferior to begin with, and trying to frame it in those terms is to borrow Emet-Selch's flawed reasoning that he used to justify taking actions he hated against a people he hated even more.

[Lyth]

It was never a competition to begin with. Amaurot is long gone. Humanity is in the present. The main reason why it's instructive to discuss Amaurot here at all is to learn from their mistakes.

Creation magic is not something that you use passively. Remember that this is the true form of summoning magic. It takes a lot of active concentration to use, because you need to hold the form of your creation steady in your mind's eye.

'By your bemused expression, I gather you find it odd that your elders can fail in so simple an application of creation magicks? It is more common than you realize, little one. In this instance, a gaggle of children was passing by as I held the image of the robes in my mind's eye. Simply by becoming aware of their presence was the form influenced and the final product changed. All things considered, it could have been worse. Just the other day, I was attempting to conceive a white haired lion, when all of a sudden this exquisite eagle alighted on the nearby railing, giving me quite the shock - and dramatically altering my initial concept!'

Amaurot is most definitely a society built around conformity. One of the very first things that you learn is that your individualistic way of dressing is a sign of depravity in their eyes. 'To delight in disparity is the mark of the morally deficient.' 'The eyes of the collective are ever watching and weighing your worth.'

The common person never speaks out against the Convocation while you're in Amaurot, given that they are held as 'the wisest and most puissiant' out of all of them. And it's worth remembering that, despite being part of its supreme leadership, Azem was unpersoned simply for refusing to tow the party line.

It's also worth noting that the way that the survivors of Thavnair warded off their Final Days was exactly as you described. They mastered their fears through their spirituality, by reciting the teachings of their old gods. They found strength and comfort in each other. And I think that's more the central theme of the story, than it is about ruminating about the 'what ifs' of a long dead civilization.

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings;
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

[tokinokanatae]

It was never a competition to begin with. Amaurot is long gone. Humanity is in the present. The main reason why it's instructive to discuss Amaurot here at all is to learn from their mistakes.

Even taking the rest of your post aside, I think this is a nice summation on the core of our disagreement. I think Amaurot and the Ancients worth discussing and and of itself, because I think exploring other cultures (even if they're fictional) to be interesting. Distilling it down to "their greatest value is in their use" is a rather amusingly Ancient sentiment we see expressed by more than one person in Elpis, though!

[Veloran]

It was never a competition to begin with. Amaurot is long gone. Humanity is in the present.

Kind of a relative concept given our very flagrant use of time travel. "The past" "the present", and "the future" are not so distinct.

Creation magic is not something that you use passively. Remember that this is the true form of summoning magic. It takes a lot of active concentration to use, because you need to hold the form of your creation steady in your mind's eye.

Except that isn't what was happening. Their creation magic was actively "wrested from their control" and dread forcibly "siphoned from their minds". It isn't the case that they were just engaging in it's use in an afflicted area and out popped a monster, something was using their own magics against them against their will.

The common person never speaks out against the Convocation while you're in Amaurot,

We clearly do see "the common person" arguing about the bureaucracy's policies and the ideals of conformity though, as tokino quoted previously.

And it's worth remembering that, despite being part of its supreme leadership, Azem was unpersoned simply for refusing to tow the party line.

It's my understanding that Azem chose to leave the Convocation. Hence being a defector rather than an outcast. Afterwards they simply didn't refill the seat.

It's also worth noting that the way that the survivors of Thavnair warded off their Final Days was exactly as you described. They mastered their fears through their spirituality, by reciting the teachings of their old gods.

The Ancients had no gods in which to place their faith. And I very much think you would argue that when they created one to put their faith in, that was them choosing to turn away from their despair rather than confront it.

[Brinne]

That is a red herring. The historically instructive question to ask is 'What were the factors that lead to Amaurot's decline and fall?'

They were attacked and sabotaged, is a good place to start, I think. Nitpicking the victims' "cracks" to search for a source of their fall within them, when they were attacked, seems a bit grotesque to me. Especially if you're trying to contrast that to "us" in the present day, who survived... largely because we had an untold amount of knowledge and resources the initial victims lacked, that we only had access to because we weren't the first targets - because we had a reference point to another group taking the hit first.

It's important to juxtapose the Ancients experiences' with Thavnair's Final Days. Here you have a society of mortals, without the grandiose power or highfalutin wisdom that Amaurot had. Unlike Amaurot, this is not simply an issue of not using a certain spell type. The Final Days corrupts not their magic, but their very flesh and souls. And yet, in the midst of all this devastation, these seemingly powerless survivors found a way to band together and overcame their feelings of despair to resist the transformation. Courage is not the absence of fear. They proved Hermes wrong in their resilience.

This is a funny comparison to me, considering how many Thavnairians we see succumb to despair and become Blasphemies - including the one who rallied the survivors, Matsya, who would have turned just like the rest if not for a last-second rescue by an outside party. Are we then to examine the deep flaws of the culture of Thavnair to understand why that mother and her children in Vanaspati all turned? Did Vrtra screw up by giving his people too stable, too good a life, instead of conditioning them better to accept suffering? What "flaws" are we to understand we must learn from when examining a baby despairing and beginning to turn, if not for a one-in-a-billion shot of a nice dragon being there at the right place at the exact right time? Do you see how strange and absurd trying to pin down a vulnerability of despair to concrete factors, to "flaws" to tsk-tsk at, begins to become?

[AlysanneVrannai]

This is a funny comparison to me, considering how many Thavnairians we see succumb to despair and become Blasphemies - including the one who rallied the survivors, Matsya, who would have turned just like the rest if not for a last-second rescue by an outside party. Are we then to examine the deep flaws of the culture of Thavnair to understand why that mother and her children in Vanaspati all turned? Did Vrtra screw up by giving his people too stable, too good a life, instead of conditioning them better to accept suffering? What "flaws" are we to understand we must learn from when examining a baby despairing and beginning to turn, if not for a one-in-a-billion shot of a nice dragon being there at the right place at the exact right time? Do you see how strange and absurd trying to pin down a vulnerability of despair to concrete factors, to "flaws" to tsk-tsk at, begins to become?

People on the Source are far more susceptible to dynamis than the Ancients ever were, this is why they so easily succumb to it. Even then, Matsya managed to stave it off with mantras and seeing hope completely saved him.

[tokinokanatae]

People on the Source are far more susceptible to dynamis than the Ancients ever were, this is why they so easily succumb to it. Even then, Matsya managed to stave it off with mantras and seeing hope completely saved him.

"Seeing hope" is a poetic way to say "saved by a third party out of the blue." It is a pity that--judging by her own recollection--Venat didn't see fit to extend that sort of "hope" to her people as she strolled past them being attacked, if that is what it takes to make sure people don't succumb to despair.