What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Vahlnir]

but it was by their own choice, unless meteion influenced it? I don't see it as something bad, I guess

Giving up on life is generally considered a bad thing. That was the entire point. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

[Lauront]

then comes zodiark, a being made from far more ancients. while this is true we also are aware that zodiark was around for days, if not weeks/months after he was summoned. he used his powers not just to enthrall(this is debatable)

It's ultimately a side effect of his summoning due to the sheer power going into it. The debatable part is the use of "enthrall", which comes down to his characteristics and the fact that the tempering we witness with the beast tribes is by contrast premised on flawed/simplified rites taught by the Ascians; in Zodiark's case, the Loporrit in the JP version for example make it clear that his raw power is what caused it. Ultimately it has some negative consequences for the summoners, particularly if they don't preserve their identity over time, but enthralment isn't necessarily one of those.

[KariTheFox]

but it was by their own choice, unless meteion influenced it? I don't see it as something bad, I guess

Isn't Meteion influencing them exactly what happened? They were living a perfectly serene and peaceful life with no awareness of the outside universe, then Meteion showed up and they decided to make Ra-la in response, seemingly on a whim.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

but it was by their own choice, unless meteion influenced it? I don't see it as something bad, I guess

Pretty sure suicide is frowned upon.

Isn't Meteion influencing them exactly what happened? They were living a perfectly serene and peaceful life with no awareness of the outside universe, then Meteion showed up and they decided to make Ra-la in response, seemingly on a whim.

No, all of the cultures she found did this on their own, without outside influence. That's what drove her insane to begin with

[linayar]

Well no, there is a reason, and that reason is if their society was restored as it was, which those sacrifices were intended to accomplish (=restoration of the star to its pre-Final Days state), she believes they're still on track to meet an eventual doom along the lines of the Plenty, hence the way her rationale is presented is that the sundering is to remove the temptation of restoring things as they were. The objection is very clearly centered around this, i.e. the aim and not just the method. You can acknowledge the intention but in the absence of knowing what was involved and whether they'd even stick to this plan if they were given a full accounting of what had happened, it's a rather speculative acknowledgement, and we're stuck with her stated rationale.

The sundering was certainly a means to prevent Zodiark to be used to restore their society, and I believe that is their main objective. But that doesn't mean that is their only reason, because their group's objection to the sacrifice was also pointed out in the story. If the sacrifice itself was irrelevant, the focus would simply be on their objection to the restoration of the society.

Even Venat herself didn't simply say to restore their society is wrong, but to sacrifice more/others to restore their society is bad. (I don't remember the exact wording here, but I'm pretty sure she mentioned the sacrifice.)

It's a fine as an assumption but we must bear in mind that the sundered possess the souls of sundered ancients (as per Elidibus in 5.2), of which some 25% or so of the remaining population were still around at the time. Still, it's possible the bodies were the result of creation magicks, at least for some races, but who knows.

I believe the reason why we possess their souls is simply due to reincarnation via the lifestream. That is why I'm not certain that the sundering actually killed anyone, but rather split off part of their aether into the reflections, with those on the source still remaining as the source or the original/main copy. Then, due to the loss of aether, the Ancients either die off eventually, mutated/evolved as a race, or even mate with some of the new life to get the existing races.

but it was by their own choice, unless meteion influenced it? I don't see it as something bad, I guess

Setting aside for the moment the question of whether suicide is right or wrong, Meteion used that as another support for her conclusion that death is a preferrable outcome and decides that end for everyone else, and that is wrong.

The point is that, just because someone lost the will to live, doesn't mean everyone else would and should too.

[Denji]

It's ultimately a side effect of his summoning due to the sheer power going into it. The debatable part is the use of "enthrall", which comes down to his characteristics and the fact that the tempering we witness with the beast tribes is by contrast premised on flawed/simplified rites taught by the Ascians; in Zodiark's case, the Loporrit in the JP version for example make it clear that his raw power is what caused it. Ultimately it has some negative consequences for the summoners, particularly if they don't preserve their identity over time, but enthralment isn't necessarily one of those.

i'm aware of this and i'm aware that emet-selch indicates he's enthralled in the ENG ver. of shadowbringers and tries to plant a seed of doubt in you that you yourself have been enthralled by the milf crystal which Ardbert even mentions (and then dismisses). generally when i say something like that it's not because i have reason to believe otherwise but because people get -really- upset when you take imply their waifus/husbandos are acting a particular way only because they've been enthralled by zodiark. (emet-selch becomes more jack-sparrow-y, elidibus becomes cold and uncaring, lahabrea is... well. lahabrea. etc.)

[Rinhi]

Giving up on life is generally considered a bad thing. That was the entire point. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

they've lived their life free of pain and sorrow, attained everything they wanted and more and every single one of them decided that they should go back to the aetherial sea, to so speak
I don't see anything bad about this, but this is certainly not the forum to discuss things like that lol

Pretty sure suicide is frowned upon.

No, all of the cultures she found did this on their own, without outside influence. That's what drove her insane to begin with

it's still a game, though, and holding it to the same standards as the real world in this case is weird when various other things in the game aren't held to the same real world standards either

thought so, though she certainly caused other stars to die after succumbing to despair

[Vahlnir]

they've lived their life free of pain and sorrow, attained everything they wanted and more and every single one of them decided that they should go back to the aetherial sea, to so speak
I don't see anything bad about this, but this is certainly not the forum to discuss things like that lol



it's still a game, though, and holding it to the same standards as the real world in this case is weird when various other things in the game aren't held to the same real world standards either

thought so, though she certainly caused other stars to die after succumbing to despair

And yet they showed it in full display to drive the point home that giving up on life is a bad thing. lol It is one of the major themes of Endwalker. Seriously.

[Rinhi]

yes, because that's how the story portrayed it, nowhere did I say it didn't or shouldn't have done that, all I did was give my opinion that I found it odd and juvenile with the striving for/attaining perfection is bad message

[KizuyaKatogami]

And yet they showed it in full display to drive the point home that giving up on life is a bad thing. lol It is one of the major themes of Endwalker. Seriously.

I don’t think they’re arguing that the story did or didn’t say it, but the story has a lot of “themes” that it tries to portray and a lot of the time players either don’t agree with them or some find it humorous when they try to push themes but then have the main cast contradict them lol.