Current top 100th percentile on P1S since 6.08 buffs

[Aikaal]

No they aren’t. Monk and Reaper are beating them in RDPS. However, BLM and Samurai are beating them in aDPS.

aDPS is a really bad metric to base yourself, rDPS is better. I remember in Stormblood when logs were calced on aDPS and every single ranged physical absolutely wanted and needed a dragoon to do competitive damage. Because DRG's existance gave them 5% DPS which should have rightfully been taxed as rDPS.

If you ask me and my hot take on the matter; ranged physical has been unbalanced since ARR. We only have data since fflogs was created in Heavensward but BRDs were doing equal damage when a DRG was in the party. In Heavensward, the meta was double physical and double melee which is why now each role is required to get the +5% to stats. In Stormblood, ranged phys was doing competitive damage only if Dragoon existed in the party. It was removed in ShB and never properly compensated.

[Dyvid]

I’m aware of how it works. Within its role, MCH crushes Bard and Dancer. Crushes them. So, outside of optimized groups, MCH isn’t a bad job to pick. Could MCH do more damage? Sure, but what is the number? Phys range suffer no penalties. None. I don’t want to hear about RDM or BLM having tools that allow for them to be mobile. Those tools are pretty much on CD at all times.

While this is true, the mobility tax should be reflected in potency being lower than SAM and BLM. The overall aDPS and nDPS should be roughly equal. Think of it like this; first you have a PRDPS fighting a dummy as a baseline, next you put a Melee next to a dummy that does melee AoE and adjust the potency to equal that of the PRDPS, then you have a MRDPS that is targeted with AoE and adjust potency to equal PRDPS. The point of the mobility tax is to not kick the PRDPS role down but adjust other roles potency to make up for the movement cost. There is no excuse as to why a MCH shouldn't be doing the same nDPS as SAM or BLM.

At this point, MCH just needs to provide the same support as Bard/ Dancer.

This is also true, PRDPS are supposed to provide DPS support for the group and MCH offers nothing, meaning the Battle team is either out of date or out of touch with their own system.

[Aikaal]

While this is true, the mobility tax should be reflected in potency being lower than SAM and BLM. The overall aDPS and nDPS should be roughly equal. Think of it like this; first you have a PRDPS fighting a dummy as a baseline, next you put a Melee next to a dummy that does melee AoE and adjust the potency to equal that of the PRDPS, then you have a MRDPS that is targeted with AoE and adjust potency to equal PRDPS. The point of the mobility tax is to not kick the PRDPS role down but adjust other roles potency to make up for the movement cost. There is no excuse as to why a MCH shouldn't be doing the same nDPS as SAM or BLM.

This is incorrect to some degree in my eyes. Theres a lot of mechanics that involve a person baiting based on distance. Liquid Hell for example and mechanics like Firestorm in P3S which requires 1 DPS to bait the north tornado. The Ranged Physical DPS mobility is used to Happy's P3S Guide Bard PoV of Firestorms You can see their strat. They have Happy (The bard) move to that north tornado. Not the Red Mage. Because Red Mage benefits from melee combos and melees benefits from being melee. That mobility isn't a DPS gain, but a support for other members. I don't see why physical ranged DPS should have lower DPS when they don't directly benefit from mobility.

[Raikai]

Oh so if mch should only be at the top of "physical ranged", then BLM should only be at the top of the casters, and not beating the melees, seems logical to me.

Uh, you're completely disregarding the fact that BLM is the least mobile job... The reason why the lower half of the chart is on a below plateau than the upper half is because those jobs are completely mobile and not needing to stay on melee range.

I'm not making a differentiation based on role type, but rather based on mobility and the fact that a ranged job will always be less risky to play because they can be anywhere.

[Aikaal]

Uh, you're completely disregarding the fact that BLM is the least mobile job... The reason why the lower half of the chart is on a below plateau than the upper half is because those jobs are completely mobile and not needing to stay on melee range.

I'm not making a differentiation based on role type, but rather based on mobility and the fact that a ranged job will always be less risky to play because they can be anywhere.

BLM not mobile? They have 2 triple cast, 2 sharcast that gives instant Fire III / Thundercloud procs, Swift cast, Quickcast Ice Paradox, Xenoglossy procs, Aetherskate to allies, Between the Leylines. Black Mage is showered with, on demand, mobility tools. Most of that mobility is tied to damage, Xenoglossy and Triple Cast so using those mainly for mobility will result in a minor damage lost since you're burst wont be fully built. Thats what separate a decent to a good Black Mage.

Strats are made for them to keep those tools specifically for damage. BLM opener burns both triple cast for a damage gain. They should be rewarded from not using their ability for mobility but for damage. That's why they should be higher but they shouldn't be this high, no.

[Kazimere]

aDPS is a really bad metric to base yourself, rDPS is better. I remember in Stormblood when logs were calced on aDPS and every single ranged physical absolutely wanted and needed a dragoon to do competitive damage. Because DRG's existance gave them 5% DPS which should have rightfully been taxed as rDPS.

If you ask me and my hot take on the matter; ranged physical has been unbalanced since ARR. We only have data since fflogs was created in Heavensward but BRDs were doing equal damage when a DRG was in the party. In Heavensward, the meta was double physical and double melee which is why now each role is required to get the +5% to stats. In Stormblood, ranged phys was doing competitive damage only if Dragoon existed in the party. It was removed in ShB and never properly compensated.

No it's not a bad metric. Not in the slightest, and if you're discounting that bracket then you are part of the problem. This is why Samurai was so busted in SHB, and why BLM is so busted right now (just like it was at the beginning of SHB).

pRanged needed dragoon for the piercing down. It's a support role, and MCH should get some support added to its kit. It's never going to be represented otherwise, because they are never going to make it compete with BLM. Ever.

[Tsumdere]

Uh, you're completely disregarding the fact that BLM is the least mobile job... The reason why the lower half of the chart is on a below plateau than the upper half is because those jobs are completely mobile and not needing to stay on melee range.

I'm not making a differentiation based on role type, but rather based on mobility and the fact that a ranged job will always be less risky to play because they can be anywhere.

BLM has been given a glut of movement skills to the point that RDMs are having more mobility issues. Sfia has a great clip of how he has 13... THIRTEEN... instant casts to use during P4S Act 2.

Moreover, what do the pRanged get from being mobile? Is there any benefit for them to be standing anywhere they like? I cannot think of a single instance in recent fights that it's beneficial to stand at range. Most of the time, you want to be in for heals/buffs anyways. I've sat in melee ranged as a MCH for nearly this entire tier (unless it's like a spread mechanic) in which I go farther to accommodate the melee so they don't have to think at all.

[Makrar]

I looked at the top 10 speed kills for each savage boss and totalled the amount of times each job appear across the 50 fights

Data reads as JOB - Number of times the job is taken in the 50 fights / that number as a % of overall 50 fights

SAM - 14 / 28%
DRG - 11 / 22%
NIN - 6 / 12%
MNK - 29 / 58%
RPR - 40 / 80%

BLM - 26 / 52%
RDM - 20 / 40%
SMN - 4 / 8%

MCH - 0 / 0%
DNC - 14 / 28%
BRD - 36 / 72%

DRK - 48 / 96%
GUN - 39 / 78%
PLD - 2 / 4%
WAR - 11 / 22%

WHM - 5 /10%
SCH - 29 / 58%
AST - 35 / 70%
SGE - 31 / 62%

Overall for casters (the role i know the most) i think theres a surprisingly large amount of red mages in these kills (at least more than i expected anyways). If SMN was increased to sit inbetween BLM and RDM then you would potentially see SMN canablise spots from BLM and RDM and end up with a fairly healthy caster split.

Theres no hope for machinist however.

The average party comp is currently exactly 2 melee / 1 caster / 1 ranged which suggests that people have mostly taken 1 ranged and caster for the role buff (or the lack of good 2nd options exist from those roles)

[Aikaal]

No it's not a bad metric. Not in the slightest, and if you're discounting that bracket then you are part of the problem. This is why Samurai was so busted in SHB, and why BLM is so busted right now (just like it was at the beginning of SHB).

pRanged needed dragoon for the piercing down. It's a support role, and MCH should get some support added to its kit. It's never going to be represented otherwise, because they are never going to make it compete with BLM. Ever.

I was a main DRG/MNK in Stormblood. Both job had pretty similar pDPS. Dragoon had BL + DS + Piercing Debuff. Giving 5% to an entire job, Dragoon was the most broken job in Stormblood.

BLM was already in a good spot on Endwalker. I'm sorry, but when you build strats, do you specifically sabotage your BLM to move more than they need to? Because nobody does that BLM is either an anomaly or both RDM/SMN are undertuned. I'll assume the second option is the correct answer. BLM has good mobility right now. BLM got world first in this tier lol. If mobility truly was a problem, they'd have gone double melee and not pick BLM. If you were to ask me, the only reason I'm not progging as BLM right now, it's because I have invested in crit/det caster gear instead of spell speed/direct hit. If anything, I feel RDM is the least mobile caster and they did get some mobility improved in EW. RDM's mobility is tied on melee uptime and their gimmick makes it they still have to cast once every 2 GCD with only swiftcast and acceleration for quick casts.

Also huh, do you even play caster in savage? Because you'd have a sharper vision of the situation if you did.

[Blutiful]

aDPS is a really bad metric to base yourself, rDPS is better. I remember in Stormblood when logs were calced on aDPS and every single ranged physical absolutely wanted and needed a dragoon to do competitive damage.

From FFlogs:

"aDPS stands for "adjusted DPS", and it is measuring how much damage you did with only single target padding removed. AOE padding is still allowed. The formula for it is:

aDPS = DPS - (damage gained from a set of specific single target buffs)"

https://www.fflogs.com/help/rdps

The number used back then in Stormblood was raw, pure DPS, which is even still visible btw, not ADPS. ADPS excludes single-target padding, and should absolutely be accounted for in balance, as it shows how well jobs perform when factoring in that some jobs burst harder in 60/120 second windows than others, which absolutely should be taken into account to attain the highest possible DPS as a party composition, thus making it a highly valuable metric for job balancing. Need more proof that ADPS matters? Go look at top speed skill groups, and notice the dominant presence of Samurai, which is still lower RDPS than two other melees. Multiple of the absolute fastest kills are using Samurai.

It's just that people like you don't understand how these numbers work and try and push false narratives with them.

As for ranged physicals being undertuned, this is a circular argument that has gone on since the start of Shadowbringers, but, I think Ranged Physical receiving a rework as a role to have much-needed skill expression is a much more logical decision to make than buffing ranged physicals flatout exponentially higher. I think it's also much more plausible. If Square Enix had any interest in just throwing like 5% more dps onto ranged physicals as a role, they probably would have done it by now - and thank Heavens they haven't.