*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Cleretic]

I want to warn about that 'unbiased crystal' wish: I think that a lot of people asking for it, similarly to the people who want to know how Azem really felt about it all, want it because they think it would validate their view. 'Surely an unbiased third party would agree with me that X is right and Y is just ridiculous', that kinda thing.

I'm not saying that anyone here is necessarily coming from that direction, just that I think it's worth pausing and considering it: Do you want an unbiased source because you think you know what the unbiased source would say?

[Rannie]

I want to warn about that 'unbiased crystal' wish: I think that a lot of people asking for it, similarly to the people who want to know how Azem really felt about it all, want it because they think it would validate their view. 'Surely an unbiased third party would agree with me that X is right and Y is just ridiculous', that kinda thing.

I'm not saying that anyone here is necessarily coming from that direction, just that I think it's worth pausing and considering it: Do you want an unbiased source because you think you know what the unbiased source would say?

It is a slippery slope is it not for people to have their ideals and values come crashing down around their ears when it doesn't come out exactly they way they think it would. While I hold certain ideas myself, I like to form a more solid opinion when I can hear and see things from all angles... atleast that's what I try to do. Admittedly, it doesn't always work that way. I'm human after all and maybe occassionally egotistical but who can't say that?

^_^

[OhNooo]

Do you want an unbiased source because you think you know what the unbiased source would say?

No I want an unbiased source because I want to know what happened from an unbiased source instead of from two obviously biased POVs.

[SpectrePhantasia]

Much as having an unbiased source confirm my preferred view would be epic, yeah I think what's more important is having an actual proper retelling of events so we can truly draw our own conclusions.

[Lurina]

I want to warn about that 'unbiased crystal' wish: I think that a lot of people asking for it, similarly to the people who want to know how Azem really felt about it all, want it because they think it would validate their view. 'Surely an unbiased third party would agree with me that X is right and Y is just ridiculous', that kinda thing.

I'm not saying that anyone here is necessarily coming from that direction, just that I think it's worth pausing and considering it: Do you want an unbiased source because you think you know what the unbiased source would say?

I don't get this take that people who ended up feeling sour about the Sundering were looking for an excuse to dislike Hydaelyn. I was ready and willing to like and agree with her, and still would be if they told a version of the story that actually made sense and didn't require huge, tone-directed assumptions on the part of the player to work around their vagaries.

Not everyone picks a made-up side in a narrative to cheer for, and then sticks with them like some kinda sports team. I just want a non-messy story.

[Nilroreo]

I don't get this take that people who ended up feeling sour about the Sundering were looking for an excuse to dislike Hydaelyn. I was ready and willing to like and agree with her, and still would be if they told a version of the story that actually made sense and didn't require huge, tone-directed assumptions on the part of the player to work around their vagaries.

Not everyone picks a made-up side in a narrative to cheer for, and then sticks with them like some kinda sports team. I just want a non-messy story.

This. I have no interest in dealing with absolutes and I couldn't care less who was right or wrong in this situation. I also have no interest in sugarcoating genocide when the perpetrator just so happened to be a character I personally liked. Both sides committed atrocities and no amount of comparisons between their death counts will ever absolve either side of this conflict of their sins. In addition, Emet regarding sundered beings as lesser or subhuman is irrelevant to the fact that his people have no more or less a right to the planet as we do. Your feelings on the matter are your own and you're free to disagree with him but to argue that we deserve it more than him cuz he called us a bad name is pointless.

To me, Venat's actions weren't an objectively correct answer as she had no idea what the outcome would be and wouldn't have created an exit strategy had she known everything would turn out fine. The sundering was simply an answer, just one answer she chose. And until I learn that there truly was no point in warning the ancients beforehand, or that the ancients were guaranteed to sacrifice innocent lives despite Elidibus himself exhibiting apprehension at the 11th hour, I will continue to treat her decision of sundering the world as just an answer.

[Lauront]

I don't get this take that people who ended up feeling sour about the Sundering were looking for an excuse to dislike Hydaelyn. I was ready and willing to like and agree with her, and still would be if they told a version of the story that actually made sense and didn't require huge, tone-directed assumptions on the part of the player to work around their vagaries.

Not everyone picks a made-up side in a narrative to cheer for, and then sticks with them like some kinda sports team. I just want a non-messy story.

My biggest bugbear with it is how it glossed over what SHB introduced as the pivotal conflict between her group and the Convocation, through a fast-forward scene which has confused no small number of people, plus tried to slap all of this together through yet another use of time travel (in spite of the Echo existing as a possible tool to utilise for glimpses into the past, given that the parameters of what it can or can't do are open-ended enough for this), itself with implications that remain poorly understood for how the setting works, and also greatly narrowing what actions the character was willing to undertake.

This. I have no interest in dealing with absolutes and I couldn't care less who was right or wrong in this situation. I also have no interest in sugarcoating genocide when the perpetrator just so happened to be a character I personally liked. Both sides committed atrocities and no amount of comparisons between their death counts will ever absolve either side of this conflict of their sins. In addition, Emet regarding sundered beings as lesser or subhuman is irrelevant to the fact that his people have no more or less a right to the planet as we do. Your feelings on the matter are your own and you're free to disagree with him but to argue that we deserve it more than him cuz he called us a bad name is pointless.

To me, Venat's actions weren't an objectively correct answer as she had no idea what the outcome would be and wouldn't have created an exit strategy had she known everything would turn out fine. The sundering was simply an answer, just one answer she chose. And until I learn that there truly was no point in warning the ancients beforehand, or that the ancients were guaranteed to sacrifice innocent lives despite Elidibus himself exhibiting apprehension at the 11th hour, I will continue to treat her decision of sundering the world as just an answer.

Ditto.

Much as having an unbiased source confirm my preferred view would be epic, yeah I think what's more important is having an actual proper retelling of events so we can truly draw our own conclusions.

Indeed. I do tend to come at stories with my own set of principles and mindset, and if I do think a story is pushing messaging too hard which I don't really care for (such as exhorting an ancient race to simply roll over and die), I may just come to the view that I will pay less attention to that aspect of a game (since you can still enjoy them in other ways), or I may just wait for a product where I prefer the storytelling. On the other hand, they may surprise me and convince me of their perspective, but a lot of what has been presented is nothing all that new and hasn't succeeded in that. But what I'd really like is a clear presentation of events in a story meant to conclude this saga, not yet more vagueness slapped upon pre-existing piles of it.

Well in the case of Endwalkers story, I agree. The story is written with the expectation that we agree that she was right despite there being plenty of evidence to the contrary. The stories morals and underlying theme, which are based on Hydaelyns own personal beliefs are expected to be taken as gospel and everything in the story is expected to conform around her beliefs. And this is precisely why I consider Endwalker to be the weakest expansion from a writing standpoint, only beating out ARR cuz of how much of a damn slog that game was.

Quite. A "theme" or "message" being present does not mean one has to agree that the way it's being presented is convincing or even consistent and isn't a substitute for a story which makes sense.

[Rulakir]

I agree to some extent that an unbiased view of events wouldn't change anything. The characterization of Venat as the 'benevolent mother' was so over the top even if it was shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that she did the wrong thing, we're still supposed to love and forgive her. I have my doubts this was Ishikawa's original intention, but it certainly was someone's decision and it's what we're stuck with now. However, as many others have stated better than I, what we're presented with in game does not make the case that the sundering was necessary. Given that it led to the death of the parent civilization, the fracturing of eternal souls, and eventually the loss of 9 reflections, it should have been driven home that there was no other way. Instead, it seems there were a myriad of other possibilities that weren't explored.

Not everyone picks a made-up side in a narrative to cheer for, and then sticks with them like some kinda sports team. I just want a non-messy story.

I didn't want to be on a team at all. I thought the whole premise of Azem striking out on their own meant they disagreed with both approaches and, likewise, the WoL would've been neutral. Instead, we're firmly planted on #TeamHydaelyn and the character of Venat is written as being not only the previous seat holder, but mentor to Azem. I'm not sure how they could have further compromised the characterization of Azem and, by extension, the WoL. I don't want them to touch Azem anymore because I'm not convinced they won't be written as being in league with Venat too.