Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[nighttimebunny]

really wasn’t my point, but alright

[HemlockEvergreen]

Emet-Selch was not forgiven though. We killed him.

[Calosa]

Not sure if people pointed this out already and I don't have the time to read the whole thing, so apologies, but when Alisaie basically says "If you don't straighten up and actually work with people you're going to be alone for eternity." which is basically "And then Senpai WoL will NEVER notice you!!!!!!!!!!!!"

So that's why Zenos helps us at the end. Because Alisaie's words DID reach him, in essence. He realized that if he wanted WoL to actually care about him, he needed to help get rid of the stuff that was taking away WoL's attention. He didn't want to be alone, so he did things to help. It was a selfish reason, but it's a good way to show him changing without making it feel like a complete 180.

I remember my dad saying "I think he deserves a fight" after seeing Shinryu Zenos come in for the assist, and I think that's what he always wanted. The redemption arc was already there. He heard Alisaie, thought about how he didn't want to be alone forever, figured out how to get his senpai to notice him, and did that. Then he asked for one more fight, and whether or not we agree with him about WoL being a monster who lives for the fight like him, we can mostly agree that after all of his attempts at changing for the better, he deserves to get what he wanted, even if the fight itself was just our way of saying "thanks".

At the end of everything though, what Zenos wanted was the rush of dying, or at least being at near death. If he managed to kill WoL he would still be satisfied, I think, given that it was such a near thing. So when he dies, that's all he ever wanted in life. He's happy, he's ready to move on, and like the rest of the universe that involves a lifestream, his soul isn't gone. It'll be reborn eventually, someday, even if the soul doesn't actually return to the planet and just kinda floats into another planet somewhere else. Either way, Zenos got what he wanted, his redemption arc was fulfilled, and he can reincarnate into someone who has a better chance at not being a jerk. It's win/win/win. I don't hate Zenos and I don't hate his character arc, but I think it has been fulfilled and we don't need to push to make it more than it was, I feel.

[nighttimebunny]

Emet-Selch was not forgiven though. We killed him.

We call upon him with our Azem stone, adventure with him in Elpis, have him as a trust NPC. He's shoved into your face regardless of your feelings about him. You don't get an "I forgive you" option but I felt the push to have to accept Emet. Now I didn't really mind because I somewhat like Emet, but still.

[HemlockEvergreen]

We call upon him with our Azem stone, adventure with him in Elpis, have him as a trust NPC. He's shoved into your face regardless of your feelings about him. You don't get an "I forgive you" option but I felt the push to have to accept Emet. Now I didn't really mind because I somewhat like Emet, but still.

He is a sympathetic antagonist but a villain nonetheless. He says himself that "The victor shall write the tale and the vanquished shall become it's villain". If anything, is him that ends up having to accept that YOUR point of view is better than his.

[Gemina]

Without going through the whole thread to avoid making any repetitive comments, what I would like to get off my chest is that Zenos doesn't have the depth that is required to have a redemption arc. He never deviates from who or what he is. Not even once throughout his whole story, and he makes mention of that to Alisaie in Garlemald. I think Alisaie represents the voice to a large part of the community feedback on Zenos. She wants him to just go away, and stop obsessing over the WoL and the rematch. He double downs and says the WoL always was, and always will be his sole concern. There is nothing else to him. It was right here that I knew his story was coming to a close in EW, because Alisaie gave him the key to finally get what he wanted. He just had to put two and two together, and boy did he do that.

Believe me, this does not mean I do not like Zenos. I always appreciated him for who he was, what he is, and the purpose he serves to the story. I was always entertained by him because I always wanted to know what he would do next. The contrast from when he is bored out of his mind on his throne in Garlemald, to his devilish excitement and fervor when he finally gets his final contest truly shows how quickly he can transition likewise. You could just feel how much he cherished every single moment of that encounter. And well, we did too. His gift to us. A fight to truly test our limits, with nothing on the line but our own lives. Just so very fantastic, and the end shot of both luminated by the onlooking stars.

Bringing him back would only cheapen this.

Don't worry though. We can honor his memory finding new prey.

[nighttimebunny]

Without going through the whole thread to avoid making any repetitive comments, what I would like to get off my chest is that Zenos doesn't have the depth that is required to have a redemption arc. He never deviates from who or what he is. Not even once throughout his whole story, and he makes mention of that to Alisaie in Garlemald. I think Alisaie represents the voice to a large part of the community feedback on Zenos. She wants him to just go away, and stop obsessing over the WoL and the rematch. He double downs and says the WoL always was, and always will be his sole concern. There is nothing else to him. It was right here that I knew his story was coming to a close in EW, because Alisaie gave him the key to finally get what he wanted. He just had to put two and two together, and boy did he do that.

Believe me, this does not mean I do not like Zenos. I always appreciated him for who he was, what he is, and the purpose he serves to the story. I was always entertained by him because I always wanted to know what he would do next. The contrast from when he is bored out of his mind on his throne in Garlemald, to his devilish excitement and fervor when he finally gets his final contest truly shows how quickly he can transition likewise. You could just feel how much he cherished every single moment of that encounter. And well, we did too. His gift to us. A fight to truly test our limits, with nothing on the line but our own lives. Just so very fantastic, and the end shot of both luminated by the onlooking stars.

Bringing him back would only cheapen this.

Don't worry though. We can honor his memory finding new prey.

I understand what you're saying but yes you're missing a lot of discussion we've had in this thread about the numerous plotholes surrounding him.
I don't want to repeat myself again but I found this video on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLjS2ZmTimI
sums up pretty much what me and others have been rehashing on this post lol. There's also many quotes from Yoshi P not in the video that just make this case stronger.

[Gemina]

I understand what you're saying but yes you're missing a lot of discussion we've had in this thread about the numerous plotholes surrounding him.
I don't want to repeat myself again but I found this video on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLjS2ZmTimI
sums up pretty much what me and others have been rehashing on this post lol. There's also many quotes from Yoshi P not in the video that just make this case stronger.

I understand that completely. I've seen just about every video on Zenos since completing EW, and my comments are not meant to rehash a debate or anything like that. I just wanted to reply to the very first post, while also just giving my general thoughts to support it, while commending the content. I didn't want to be just all, "He's not coming back. Bye now!" xD

Whether he comes back or not, he is gone for good as far as what's canon for my own character's story. Kind of like Avenger's Endgame to me. I was just like, "Nope. didn't happen."

[Elysidelphi]

Without going through the whole thread to avoid making any repetitive comments, what I would like to get off my chest is that Zenos doesn't have the depth that is required to have a redemption arc. He never deviates from who or what he is. Not even once throughout his whole story, and he makes mention of that to Alisaie in Garlemald. I think Alisaie represents the voice to a large part of the community feedback on Zenos. She wants him to just go away, and stop obsessing over the WoL and the rematch. He double downs and says the WoL always was, and always will be his sole concern. There is nothing else to him. It was right here that I knew his story was coming to a close in EW, because Alisaie gave him the key to finally get what he wanted. He just had to put two and two together, and boy did he do that.

Believe me, this does not mean I do not like Zenos. I always appreciated him for who he was, what he is, and the purpose he serves to the story. I was always entertained by him because I always wanted to know what he would do next. The contrast from when he is bored out of his mind on his throne in Garlemald, to his devilish excitement and fervor when he finally gets his final contest truly shows how quickly he can transition likewise. You could just feel how much he cherished every single moment of that encounter. And well, we did too. His gift to us. A fight to truly test our limits, with nothing on the line but our own lives. Just so very fantastic, and the end shot of both luminated by the onlooking stars.

Bringing him back would only cheapen this.

Don't worry though. We can honor his memory finding new prey.

Thank you for your input on this topic. On a slightly different note, I've seen some of your other posts in other threads and your signature always stood out to me. May I ask you where is it from and who says it and in which context? The line in it about the "Warrior of Light" makes me think it's from FFXIV? But I may be wrong, and also I'm not sure on the context. It's an amazing quote and I'd love to know more about it.

[Gemina]

Thank you for your input on this topic. On a slightly different note, I've seen some of your other posts in other threads and your signature always stood out to me. May I ask you where is it from and who says it and in which context? The line in it about the "Warrior of Light" makes me think it's from FFXIV? But I may be wrong, and also I'm not sure on the context. It's an amazing quote and I'd love to know more about it.

Thank you for your kind words.

I suppose the WoL can be applied to at least a couple FF games, but you are correct that it is related to FFXIV, and specifically the SCH's fairy, Lily. I actually wrote the poem myself lol, and what inspired me to write it was to reflect the thoughts of Lily, whom along with her brethren, speak with a poetic tongue in my mind.

Lore-wise, fairies communicate with their SCH through erratic flight patterns and bodily gestures. They do comprehend speech, but are apparently incapable of it themselves (I like to think of them like Tinkerbell, and we just can't hear them). What can be heard comes out muffled and incomprehensible. The poem expresses what Eos would say to the WoL if it could be only one of several lifetimes worth of gratitude.

The picture I chose to illustrate it expresses a sadness felt by both Eos and myself due to lack of interaction we actually get with her in game. I would like SE to take her in a direction that makes her more of a familiar, and less of a pet. Even if their victory stance had the SCH and Lily high five each other, or she allows herself to land and sit in your palm; it would go a really long way to breathe life into our fairies. Hopefully they will do something like that in the near future.