The dev team did a fantastic job on the MNK rework. I love it.

[ssunny2008]

- PB/Blitz gives this job what it desperately needed: an actual substantial core job mechanic and powerful attacks to build up to. No longer is a level 1 GCD our most powerful ability. PB as it was in ShB felt clunky with having to force your positionals to line up in your rotation and no form shift at the end of PB meant you had to do DK twice in a row sometimes. For a burst phase it felt underwhelming. New PB gives you more flexibility and a form shift at the end for a smooth transition out, not to mention the awesome looking blitzes.

MNK had always his core job-mechanics and a strong attack to build up via forms called Bootshine. You had 3 different systems working together... GL, positionals of the forms. Just because you or others need a "pew-pew"-skill like Midare or dislike what we had, doesn´t mean that MNK´s kit has been bad or that Blitz does a better job, which is definately not the case.

- There are already multiple rotations to choose from due to the jobs flexibility. High-end players will only know which one is best for which fight, but you as the player can choose how your monk rotation looks to an extent. Whether you want to maximize the amount of Phantom Rushes you can do, or put it under the most raid buffs. The burst on double solar feels smoother to me, while "optimal drift" necessitates knowing how to change up your burst phase depending on how demolish is doing when your cooldowns are about to pop. This has given the job a satisfying learning curve for me. When I pull with Monk I'm always looking how to better optimize and perform, which is a good thing.

"Multiple rotations", which rotations are you talking about? We´ve 3 yet, but all do play pretty much the same. The downphase is definately the same, the burstphases are pretty much the same on LO, OD. In case of DS you just start with 123 twice instead of BS/TK-spam, everything beyond is again the same. We had multiple openers in the past too (PB/Anatman), so this is nothing new or crazy. In kind of Blitz all you do is to use PB earlier or later in the combo, that´s all. The damage isn´t even a deal unless you want to go from a 99 parse to 100.
MNK´s core rotation is even the same, just with added burstbuttons.

- the six GCD form-based rotation was already a strong combo system compared to other jobs, even if positionals are removed. The job has enough going on now imo to justify removing them though

The job is one of the most boring classes right now yes. I don´t know how ppl can be like "The job has enough going on now!", when it clearly doesn´t. It´s not even a subjective thing if we compare it to what we had before, even without GL. You had waaaaaaaaaaay more to do before especially in the burstphases. There have been moments where it has been played like triple-weave thx to chakra, another oGCD and RoE on top, because you don´t have been able to get to the rear / flank mechanic-wise. Playing positionals permanently has been a thing to care about aswell. You always had more to do than "press a button" which didn´t make the downphase so dull to play.



Funny thing scrolling through all the threads and at any time ppl are like "I love the new MNK, it has so much variety, it looks so cool!", ppl seem to be:

- highly casual
- not really experienced
- "animation-lover"
- positional-hater
- class-wh****
- no endgame-raider

Thx for nothing SE. Please keep on catering the casuals and ppl who don´t give af, so they can jk off to all the glam and animations while spamming 1 button.

I was gonna address all of the post, but I simply do not have the energy honestly. All I want to say is that why is it inherently bad if Monk doesn't use the most positionals between the melees? Why does it have to have the most rather than evolving into something else?

Because a bunch of players enjoy it?! What´s the point to have 5 melee classes with 123, a gauge and 2 positionals but different animations? Why shouldn´t there be a fully positional-class, if everyone who either sucks on them or just don´t want to play them could make use of 4 other melees? EW MNK is nothing but hard homogenized for the worse. No matter if you like it or not. We´ve less variety across the melee-classes once again and on top no fast positional-heavy class anymore. It´s just dumb... and ppl who don´t see that are either blind, ignorant or just fcking selfish.

[Lieri]

I stopped leveling my MNK when I hit 60 during ShB, I could imagine doing all those positions in savage raid and I know I'm not good enough to be able to pull it off. But reading people comments about MNK these days kinda makes me want to try it at 90.

[SquigglesMajor]

I agree and disagree. First off, it's something new to Monk since the dawn of time that actually gives the class something to stride for. Before it was maintain GL under any circumstances which they did away with. I personally liked GL, but there were definitely some fights where you just don't play monk because of downtime and having to start from GL0 and rebuild without PB. I was on the hating Blitz front for a while since it's a copy pasted mechanic from other jobs, but it's been growing on me to see a fresh coat of paint on the class I've been playing. It's like the start of an unfinished tattoo, I can see it getting cooler but I'm not at the point I want to show it off to people yet.

Also as for the punishing, yes it sucks, but it's not nearly as bad as classes like Ninja. I'd love to see the class have a more reasonable use for Celestial Revolution cuz honestly sometimes I mess up just to see the animation, wish it wasn't completely useless.

Basically as long as I've been playing the class, we've lost a lot and this isn't the best the class has looked -I personally loved 2.0 monk juggling ToD, Demolish, and Fracture - but I enjoy that they're trying to give the class something new to go for. I truly hate that they missed the big opportunity to reinvent the class with a new chakra system because what we have is just not anything special, and bland as can be. But Blitz is a nice addition to what we have, I just pray there's more in mind for it.

Give us positionals back though, please.... I refuse to play the dumbed down version and still risk everything for a positional that doesn't exist anymore. The class was just way more engaging when you got to move around

If I have to live with blitz I'd rather see them transform it into something maybe a bit more simpler or at least flexible. For starter I think blitz should work like celestial revolution by default. No juggling between the two combos. Just free form, do what you want and always get a nadi. I understand bootshine combo is always going to be the correct way to perfect balance, but outside of the artificial requirement of solar nadi there's no way to avoid that. On top of that instead of having two different Blitz we would have one that is single target, and one that is aoe like chakra. Phantom Rush would stay the same as the best of both.

I'd also like to see how form changing works. If I'm in Perfect Balance and I use opo-opo it should put me into raptor so I can continue my rotation without having to immediately spend my blitz. Zodiark is a fight that gets when my cooldowns are coming off for a burst window just as he become untargetable. I can delay going into Riddle of Fire but if it's an odd window then I'm forced to delay Brotherhood. Or I cast it anyways to maintain the timer and waste it on not attacking. I'd like to be able to prep a blitz, hold onto it, and spend it when I want.

[Aeliott]

- highly casual
- not really experienced
- "animation-lover"
- positional-hater
- class-wh****
- no endgame-raider

Can you just can it? Honestly, this is getting ridiculous. I liked older iterations of Monk. I like new Monk. I'm indifferent to positions currently playing it, yes, endgame raiding content, where I also don't care about "downtime" (5.4 MNK was far more boring than this...). I mained machinist in 3.X and 5.X but monk was always a close secondary even when I stopped maining halfway through HW and I still did the content on it. And heck, if you wanna talk about jobs losing stuff let's talk about machinist. I get it! And you know, it was miles away the least-mained job in both HW and SB (the latter for obvious reasons).

You have these super niche userbase jobs, constantly making posts like "Monk is Fundamentally Flawed and Needs a Complete Rework!" for entire expansions, and while usually horrifically melodramatically worded, like everything in this forum, aren't without merit. And...that's the "danger". To be reworked is to be uprooted. And yeah, the few people who liked the older versions are at risk of not liking whatever it becomes. To use my machinist comparison, I kind of enjoyed the ShB rework, but it's not what I signed up for and I lost interest. What I didn't do is verbally abuse those who did like the new version.

I'm not saying you're not allowed to feel distaste about it. Of course you are. I'm not trying to be a white knight either, I consider Monk to be still flawed in a few ways even though I chose to main it again. When machinist got a do-over, yeah...people said that they loved the new animations. There were many new people playing it...which was, for better or worse for the people who liked the older versions, the main purpose. I mean of course there were, it was the lowest pop job, duh. You're allowed to lament what doesn't exist any more. I get it! When people joke that nobody on the team plays Monk, I know why. I like the new version, I liked some older versions, I'd make changes to the new one. It's still janky. Give feedback about it. But, can you not keep attacking other people because you see them as a threat to any chance of getting what you want back?

The entire purpose of this post was about the developers commenting on how unnecessarily hostile the userbase's attitude was and you're being the epitome of that. Stop patronising those who like it, whatever their reasons, and express your criticism in a less toxic way. Do you think people will want old monk features back if their loudest, most aggressive supporters constantly crap on others and have an attitude like that? "Adults in the room" indeed, to whoever said that earlier...

[Mikey_R]

All I want to say is that why is it inherently bad if Monk doesn't use the most positionals between the melees? Why does it have to have the most rather than evolving into something else?

Why should it not when it always has been? Look at the casters, you have Black mage being the most cast heavy job down to Summoner being the least. Look at Ranged, you have buffing noone, buffing one person or buffing the whole party. Why can melees not have some fundamental thing that follows a spectrum, in this case, positionals. You had Monk with the most, Dragoon after and the last 3 in some mix as I just do not have enough experience to rank them, but I suspect it would go Nin > Rpr > Sam.

The problem with arguing that 'does X NEED to have this' is that the opposite can be true. Does Samurai NEED to be the top DPS, or can it give it back to monk? Arguments can be made either way. Does Dragoon NEED to have a 5 stage combo where no other Melees have that?

The problem with losing uniqueness from jobs is that you start to lose variety, when you start to lose variety. Your jobs don't stand out, they are just lost in the sea of sameness.

IIRC, the initial problem with positionals on everything was the PB window. If they had kept positionals and instead just allowed PB to ignore positionals, you keep positionals to keep people engaged in the downtime and you also solve the problem of positionals potentially posing a problem in the burst phases. This, I feel, would have kept more people happier.

[Sqwall]

The entire purpose of this post was about the developers commenting on how unnecessarily hostile the userbase's attitude was and you're being the epitome of that. Stop patronising those who like it, whatever their reasons, and express your criticism in a less toxic way. Do you think people will want old monk features back if their loudest, most aggressive supporters constantly crap on others and have an attitude like that? "Adults in the room" indeed, to whoever said that earlier...

Sunny is the ONLY poster on my ignore list.

[ssunny2008]

snip

Why should i bother with the truth?

The most ppl here are what they´re, highly casual and selfish. They wish changes for the worse, just to be catered in an easier way to execute their roles. They claim it to be "deeper gameplay", but in the end it lasts in one-button spam and all they care about are some shiny visuals. The new SMN proofs that as much as RPR does. As long as something is like "Oh that looks soooo cool!", all seems fine right?

On the other hand you´ve some "mains" talking about flaws and reworks all day long. "We need this, we need that!", just because they played a class for so long and probably got tired pressing that one button, or am tired not pressing one button often enough.

Such ppl have cost us everything, not only on MNK. We lost more than enough variety and uniqueness in this game across the board. Ppl are just blind or dumb if they can´t see what they did with their wishes... cause hey, they run around "Hurray! Awesome change!", meanwhile looking on nothing but visuals or don´t even play the job, because another job is easier or more shiny and if they´re done with it after 2-3 weeks, they jump on the next hypetrain.

Both types of players are nothing but poison for class-identities. If there is a real flaw like

- 50% less DPS than others
- not able to survive a tankbuster
- a skill not working
- whatever,

then yes, classes should be tweaked. But if the whole reasons are nothing but

- I don´t want to deal with this class mechanic!
- I´m too bad to play the class!
- I want everything to be perfect aligned!
- I don´t want skills which are not or rarely used in the endgame!
- I just want to be catered on every class!


THIS is ridiculous and we lost so much caused by it. You can check out the whole boards.
Healer opened more than enough threads to stop the homogenization and braindead 1 button gameplay. What happened? They got even more homogenized and lost the last unique features.
Tanks? I don´t know... seems like their brain got deleted by playing such braindead classes. Moaning about DRK for years, still no change... but on the other hand they don´t seem to care about anything else. Tanks are so broken and so hard homogenized, i don´t get why we´ve 4 of them.
And DPS? Do i really need to say something about? "My hardhitter don´t align with my 120s burstwindow, me sad, please rework the class!" or "I don´t want to move, please remove everything which could cause me to do that!" or "I´m tired of taking care about Dots, please remove them!"

Dozens of "QoL" changes for the worst, just because some ppl jump from class to class, moaning about stuff they dislike and in the end they don´t give af. What´s left for the ppl, who played the class for its variety and unique features?! Nothing... and all because more than enough ppl can´t accept, that they´re just bad players, that they played the class maybe too long, or my personal favorite... that they´re just selfish. Just check out some posional-haters here. We told them friendly "Not every class is made for everyone. You´ve 3, soon 4 classes with way less positionals."
To leave MNK as the heavy-positional class would´ve been a 1 to 5 compromise. But do they give af? NO, because they WANT! They pay a sub!
And now a lot of them keep running around "MNK is great, go play something else you stupid MNK mains hahahaha!" or they don´t even play the class yet? Seriously?

I don´t mind ppl who enjoy the new MNK, SMN, RPR, whatever. But i do care about all this bs going on, because either unexperienced players, those who don´t keep anything in mind but their selfish wishes or some with controversial claims, are a thing.


(Yeah adults in a room with an UwU-TaStiC playerbase, running around to glam a character in a videogame, meanwhile being cuty catgirls or lalafells selling themselves in Limsa. This game is indeed made for adults. Forgot my babypowder for those who can´t stand against harsh words.)

Sunny is the ONLY poster on my ignore list.

Sqwall is one of the posters, running a crusade against positionals on MNK, because they love a punching job, just to stuck on WAR after getting catered. Thumbs up for that.

[Navnav]

- I don´t want to deal with this class mechanic!
- I´m too bad to play the class!
- I want everything to be perfect aligned!
- I don´t want skills which are not or rarely used in the endgame!
- I just want to be catered on every class!

The issue I have with you is that you don't even properly read what is written. It's just a case of "he doesn't LIKE positionals, ok he IS BAD at them". It's a very childish approach to anyone that has opposing views to your own. Tbh you already know how I feel about you, and you can curse my name till the cows come home, but that isn't going to change that I didn't like them and don't feel they add anything except trying to masquerade lazy design. Positionals are NOT hard. Can you just accept that a lot players simply just disliked the amount of them, rather than they just couldnt do it.

[ssunny2008]

The issue I have with you is that you don't even properly read what is written. It's just a case of "he doesn't LIKE positionals, ok he IS BAD at them". It's a very childish approach to anyone that has opposing views to your own. Tbh you already know how I feel about you, and you can curse my name till the cows come home, but that isn't going to change that I didn't like them and don't feel they add anything except trying to masquerade lazy design. Positionals are NOT hard. Can you just accept that a lot players simply just disliked the amount of them, rather than they just couldnt do it.

The worst part on this is, that you never properly read what was written down. It has always been "They´re bad at positonals." OR "Don´t want them to play." OR "Don´t even try to get used to them."

You guys couldn´t live with 1 out of 4 (5) melees being positional-heavy for some stupid selfish reasons. You couldn´t even live to be like "Ok, i´m gonna play casual-content only anyway. No need for postitionals there."
And that you made a crusade with that casual above, just to ignore MNK now, is nothing but a joke. It says enough and even assists all my claims and promises i did in earlier threads. Serious devs should never cater guys like you. You gonna jump on the next easy-peasy animated hypetrain anyway, because it´s so DOPE.

[Atmaweapon510]

I think people are really underselling how difficult monk is to actually grasp and especially maximize. Monk's optimal rotation is not intuitive to learn with Demolish being every 3rd rotation and Twin Snakes every 2nd rotation, and the UI is not helpful in this regards. It's like playing Black Mage, but having to track your Astral Fire/Umbral Ice timer on the buff bar instead of your specialized UI. Enough repetition and eventually you remember the timings through sheer muscle memory, but until then, it's a really unfun endeavor. Add in positionals, delayed chakra gains depending on animation, and the inability to double weave on medium ping despite having multiple ogcds that you need to hit one after the other, and Monk becomes an unintuitive mess that turns people off, even if they want the general fantasy that pugilist offered.

I'm not a Monk main, the playstyle didn't suit my tastes and I really didn't care what they did to it for Endwalker. Removing positionals eased one of the pain points, but I still like Samurai and Black Mage more, Samurai because it has a more intuitive rotation that doesn't really bother with tracking your buff bar, and Black Mage because *all* of your focus is on the timer and how to get the most out of it through boss mechanics. However, I do like playing current Monk more as a casual and... well, that's probably what the designers were going for.