Astral Fire/Umbral Ice timers are actually bad mechanics at a meta level.

[IruruCece]

I'm still flabbergasted anyone from WoW wants any other game to be more WoW-like, when WoW has regularly refused to learn anything from the competition AND is in such a state that it is actively driving players to literally every other MMO currently running, this game included. What next? Should we get FFXIV Tokens for our subscriptions?

[OtakuSempai]

I'm still flabbergasted anyone from WoW wants any other game to be more WoW-like, when WoW has regularly refused to learn anything from the competition AND is in such a state that it is actively driving players to literally every other MMO currently running, this game included. What next? Should we get FFXIV Tokens for our subscriptions?

Now to be fair, class design is the only thing modern WoW does very very well in my opinion.

If FFXIV straight up copied their tank/healer design philosophy, it would be 3x the better game for it for example.

[IruruCece]

Now to be fair, class design is the only thing modern WoW does very very well in my opinion.

If FFXIV straight up copied their tank/healer design philosophy, it would be 3x the better game for it for example.

But I don't want to play WoW, which is why I've been playing FFXIV.

Like there are a lot of flaws with this game right now, but they aren't so great that they can't be fixed without dramatically changing everything to be even more like some other game. We've got people with severe WoWbrain going on about how healers should "only heal" on the forums right now, and the last thing I'd want to see is the FFXIV devs cater to idiots like that. If that's the supposedly brilliant healer design coming out of WoW today, I can't imagine the nightmare that would be their tank design philosophy.

[OtakuSempai]

But I don't want to play WoW, which is why I've been playing FFXIV.

Okay, and? Nowhere did I say FFXIV should emulate wow entirely.

Like there are a lot of flaws with this game right now, but they aren't so great that they can't be fixed without dramatically changing everything to be even more like some other game. We've got people with severe WoWbrain going on about how healers should "only heal" on the forums right now, and the last thing I'd want to see is the FFXIV devs cater to idiots like that. If that's the supposedly brilliant healer design coming out of WoW today, I can't imagine the nightmare that would be their tank design philosophy.

You assume a lot don't you? You are aware the original design of this game was essentially a copy-paste of an earlier version of WoW?

Idiots suggesting healers should only heal have been around for as long there have been RPGs, it has nothing to do with WoWbrain or WoW in general. This shows you have no idea how that game is actually played, which is not surprising considering how much of a bubble most of this community lives in.

Tank/Healer design in this game is atrociously bad, and frankly if they copied literally any other mmo out right now specifically in regards to that (and nothing else) it would be a much better game. I merely wanted to point out that those things are done really well in WoW and wanted to give credit where credit was due.

[AnaseSkyrider]

I'm still flabbergasted anyone from WoW wants any other game to be more WoW-like, when WoW has regularly refused to learn anything from the competition AND is in such a state that it is actively driving players to literally every other MMO currently running, this game included. What next? Should we get FFXIV Tokens for our subscriptions?

It was clear to me before I even posted my contribution that you people are incapable of critical reading, but what's even more surprising is how you people conjure words that straight up were not *anywhere* in anything I said, at all, in any way, shape, or form, to any level of examination or magnification.

Bravo.

[EDIT: Technically you didn't reply to me, but this *was* just below another post that accused me of trolling. If this was intended to not include me, then I retract my snark. Otherwise, it remains.]

Stop defending these stupid timers. BLM isn't "rewarded" for its high-skill play, it's balanced around correctly performing its rotation alongside all the other classes correctly performing their rotations. There is just "punishment" for failing a rotation that is arbitrarily more difficult to execute in play. Actually pressing the buttons is not hard in the slightest, it's introducing encounter mechanics to the rotation that is the problem since it is uniquely designed to interact worse with said mechanics.

[Kabooa]

Stop defending these stupid timers.

No.

There is zero reason to monumentally change the job, alter the actions, to mimic what we already have when the timers do it for us and allow us lateral decision making.

This is literally a case of "go play any other job" and have fun over there. We're doing just fine here.

[IruruCece]

It was clear to me before I even posted my contribution that you people are incapable of critical reading, but what's even more surprising is how you people conjure words that straight up were not *anywhere* in anything I said, at all, in any way, shape, or form, to any level of examination or magnification.

Bravo.

[EDIT: Technically you didn't reply to me, but this *was* just below another post that accused me of trolling. If this was intended to not include me, then I retract my snark. Otherwise, it remains.]

No, I wasn't addressing you personally, but I will now. Feel free to "retract" your reactionary dumbass "apology", I'll keep your clownshoes BS quoted for posterity.

Your ideas are bad, and have always been bad. Play a different job if BLM isn't for you anymore, the timers are fine and players with considerably more experience and skill than you or I have put in far more effort to explain why they work in the context of the game as it actually exists, and certainly more effort than your posts whining about how it feels "punishing to make *gasp* a mistake *abloo abloooooo*."

This game has so many options that cater to your interests. Play them instead. Or cancel your sub and improve the game and the forums in one shot.

[AnaseSkyrider]

Feel free to "retract" your reactionary dumbass "apology"

Strange you say that, because nowhere in there was an apology. Probably because I had nothing to actually apologize for.

Your ideas are bad, and have always been bad. [...] the timers are fine and players with considerably more experience and skill than you or I have put in far more effort to explain why they work

And yet this cannot be demonstrated, because as has ALREADY been laid out in detail by others, there are other methods of achieving the same fun rotation with many if not all of the same properties it already has *while also* removing the unnecessary stance timers. From beginning to end, every argument in defense of them has already been debunked. Arguments like "It would become a static rotation! It's intended to be fluid!", when it already is largely static and is clearly not intended to be fluid because every time BLMs come out with something new, the devs patch it out. The timer *clearly* exists to structure the rotation in the same way melee combos structure the rotation, except it's way easier to break and adds punishment for no reward. Make a better structure.

whining about how it feels "punishing to make *gasp* a mistake *abloo abloooooo*."

I know it's hard to accurately represent someone's position when honesty isn't your goal, but my complaints *indisputably* are not with the principle of being punished for making mistakes; it's about degrees. You probably wouldn't appreciate literally having 20s Silence placed on you if your rotation was even slightly messed up, because it would be excessively punishing, right? It took until EW for dropping Enochian to stop being a pseudo-silence on your main rotation.

My point from post#1 is that you can still have the same rotation that exists at various breakpoints in the leveling process and at EW end-game while not having to create bloated workarounds for problems inherent to BLM. And as Taranok points out, removing the timers leaves room for *better* mechanics.

The tagline for diehard players who insist the BLM design is perfect and beautiful really needs to be "better things aren't possible".

[Ferrinus]

From beginning to end, every argument in defense of them has already been debunked. Arguments like "It would become a static rotation! It's intended to be fluid!", when it already is largely static and is clearly not intended to be fluid because every time BLMs come out with something new, the devs patch it out. The timer *clearly* exists to structure the rotation in the same way melee combos structure the rotation, except it's way easier to break and adds punishment for no reward. Make a better structure.

Where has it been debunked? Can you quote or link to a post? It seems to me that when people describe the fluid nature of BLM spell sequencing in response to claims that it has a static "rotation" just like every melee job, those posts simply go ignored, only for the original complainant to repeat their original complaints a few pages later.

Is the debunking just that the devs always patch out weird meme rotations? In the first place, that's not actually true, and in the second place, it's disingenuous to try to equate something like "never cast Fire IV or any spell with Blizzard in its name" to stuff like "delay your Paradox or cast it early in order to make room for procs you'd otherwise overwrite" or "replace your last Fire IV with a Despair to keep astral going" or "use swift or triplecast to refresh astral with 1s left on the timer". These on the spot dynamic modifications have no equivalent among classes that actually have static rotations because the only question that ever comes up with a static rotation is whether you can keep your GCD rolling or have to wait.

It seems like you, like some others in this thread, are confusing what a BLM does to a training dummy with what a BLM does to an enemy that can fight back. The unique thing about BLM is that, while these two things are identical for many jobs, they're very different for BLM.

[AnaseSkyrider]

It seems to me that when people describe the fluid nature of BLM spell sequencing in response to claims that it has a static "rotation" just like every melee job, those posts simply go ignored, only for the original complainant to repeat their original complaints a few pages later.

Isn't the task of ABC itself what makes your rotation dynamic; trying to fill in with instant casts *somewhere* in the rotation so that you can keep big-CD abilities rolling and not drift? I won't pretend that *I, personally,* have an idea for a perfect mimicry of the very specific examples you gave (I'm too new to the FF14 and BLM to do that easily) like with handling placement of F1, F4, and Despair, but it looks to me like the previously posted ideas with a Paradox-lite mechanic or putting F4 on a charge system already accomplishes like 75% of this.

Is the debunking just that the devs always patch out weird meme rotations? In the first place, that's not actually true, (emphasis added)

Whoa whoa, can you please elaborate on that?

It seems like you, like some others in this thread, are confusing what a BLM does to a training dummy with what a BLM does to an enemy that can fight back. The unique thing about BLM is that, while these two things are identical for many jobs, they're very different for BLM.

Can you explain further? I'm not really sure what you mean because I've even said things like ->

Actually pressing the buttons is not hard in the slightest, it's introducing encounter mechanics to the rotation that is the problem since it is uniquely designed to interact worse with said mechanics.

Which clearly acknowledges the difference between performing on a dummy in a whiteroom vs in dealing with the actual array of encounter mechanics in the game.