What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[TaleraRistain]

At the end of Shadowbringers, G'raha, when asked by Y'shtola why he still lives despite us having averted the 8UC describes the situation as an "unexpected development." G'raha and his collaborators had every intention to carry out a plan they expected would result in the complete erasure of all lives on etherys, as well as the remaining shards that were in no way made privy to any of their plans, just because they couldn't live a reality in which the WoL was dead. The lives of an entire existence, not just one planet, but all of existence across an entire universe, snuffed out just to save one person. Please explain to me how the ancients planning to sacrifice just a singular planets worth of life is deemed the single most deplorable act across the games history.

This is absolutely disingenuous and false. The First Rejoining and Black Rose decimated both Aldenard and Ilsabard. There were survivors, in a broken and bleak world. The stories of the WoL gave them hope. It wasn't just Ironworks deciding for everyone. It was the survivors coming together and working toward that goal. And they worked on it for 200 years. 200 years in which nothing improved enough in their reality to weigh against that risky venture. They were looking to the past, no arguments there. But what future could they look forward to if nothing changed in that long to make them think another path was possible? They knew their timeline might disappear. It was worth it for them if another timeline had a better future.

[KizuyaKatogami]

This is absolutely disingenuous and false. The First Rejoining and Black Rose decimated both Aldenard and Ilsabard. There were survivors, in a broken and bleak world. The stories of the WoL gave them hope. It wasn't just Ironworks deciding for everyone. It was the survivors coming together and working toward that goal. And they worked on it for 200 years. 200 years in which nothing improved enough in their reality to weigh against that risky venture. They were looking to the past, no arguments there. But what future could they look forward to if nothing changed in that long to make them think another path was possible? They knew their timeline might disappear. It was worth it for them if another timeline had a better future.

Just like how the final days decimated not just a couple continents, but the entire world. What other choice did they have but to summon Zodiark? Did they rely on him? Yes. But it literally isnt any different from how people rely upon the WoL, or how we ourselves are constantly relying on higher up entities to help us. We're shown in the short story that they actually do eventually choose to live on, along with Midgardsormr i believe. So it was very much possible for them to continue through instead of erasing an entire timeline of people to resurrect one person. The whole problem here is Zodiark not being a permanent solution to the final days. That is Venat's main gripe, which is interesting in and of itself because she had the means to communicate and help before they even occurred. Thats the overall problem here.

Rewatch this since it is basically a summary of what led to venat's final decision
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlA0lGrSRqM

If you need further and more detailed accounts of what this scene represented. Rewatch all cutscenes from 2.0 till present that involved ascians



That is a very big IF lol.

Venat's entire plan is a very big if. Literally relies on one person, whom of which failed and required time manipulation to be brought back. I've already explained to you as best as i can about the sacrifices. I dont need nay videos to be shown to me as i already know the whole deal about the sacrifices and her decision. None of it changes the fact she couldve told them beforehand and didnt. She kept secrets,manipulated, and lied. End of story.

Yea I think some people just do not want to accept Venat's positive portrayal and therefore are trying to justify their negative views on her. On my part I do hope Venat makes some cameo in the future along with Emet if at all possible. Really liked their characters haha Venat is gone too soon for me haha. Her Voice Actress was also perfect for the role just like Voice Actress for Meteion is for her character.

No, most people just dont agree with her diabolical actions and horrible mindset. To me, shes nothing more than a psychopath. She preaches about suffering and walking forward but then has no hope for her own people and doesnt face the problem head on.

[TaleraRistain]

Just like how the final days decimated not just a couple continents, but the entire world. What other choice did they have but to summon Zodiark? Did they rely on him? Yes. But it literally isnt any different from how people rely upon the WoL, or how we ourselves are constantly relying on higher up entities to help us. We're shown in the short story that they actually do eventually choose to live on, along with Midgardsormr i believe. So it was very much possible for them to continue through instead of erasing an entire timeline of people to resurrect one person.

Middy doesn't wake up until after the Tower is sent back. The Biggs in the story muses that removing it may have been why he woke up. And Middy does ask about it. It's when they don't disappear and then he wakes up and says he will help them and give them knowledge that they start considering they may be able to make something more of their current reality. Cid survived and started the idea. There's nothing spelling this out, but it's possible something just broke in him when he lost all of us. So maybe he could have found a way and his heart wasn't in it anymore. But that doesn't mean everyone 200 years after him had to agree to the plan and not see other ways. That's why it reads to me that there really wasn't a future to look forward to. Just like with the Ancients before they summoned Zodiark.And I don't see many arguing that the Ancients were wrong for the initial summoning of Zodiark and replenishing the planet. Both groups were in a bad situation and tried to take a path to change that.

[Stachiko]

Venat's entire plan is a very big if. Literally relies on one person, whom of which failed and required time manipulation to be brought back.

You have some resiliency good sir. Appreciate it.

Since we're clearly not supposed to think for ourselves, any ideas why Square went this route? Time travel rarely ever ends well or emotionally satisfactory, so why would they risk it?

Though I can't help but ask what anyone would consider a more appropriate ending? Maybe with all the parties still involved?

The question's open to anyone really.

[Theodric]

Though I can't help but ask what anyone would consider a more appropriate ending? Maybe with all the parties still involved?

There's a conversation between Emet-Selch and the Warrior of Darkness back in Kholusia after bringing everybody together from across Norvrandt in order to ascend the lift. It basically comes down to him offering some praise for the WoD defying the odds and taking the difficult route to find a third way forward that brings both opposing sides in a conflict together rather than simply wiping out the opposition completely.

So, something along those lines would have pleased me and lessened the blow of seeing the Scions partake of yet more fake deaths only to miraculously and conveniently return minutes later with zero lasting consequences to speak of.

[Lauront]

You have some resiliency good sir. Appreciate it.

Since we're clearly not supposed to think for ourselves, any ideas why Square went this route? Time travel rarely ever ends well or emotionally satisfactory, so why would they risk it?

Though I can't help but ask what anyone would consider a more appropriate ending? Maybe with all the parties still involved?

The question's open to anyone really.

Probably using the Echo as opposed to time travel to peer into the past. Keeping her memory wiped. Introducing a third party manipulator as the instigator of the conflict between the Convocation and Venat; they already had something like this in Fandaniel. There was the mystery of what Azem was up to - maybe have their current soul shard pick up on that and forge their own way forward, rather than hers. Move the Sundering to an accidental act flowing from this. Obviously going back in time and saving the ancient world would either require a new game or a branching AU, neither of which is realistic in the context of a single expansion, even if the latter is something they could potentially do as an expansion based on the current story. But of all the things I hated most, it is the time travel and associated shenanigans.

[OhNooo]

Since we're clearly not supposed to think for ourselves, any ideas why Square went this route? Time travel rarely ever ends well or emotionally satisfactory, so why would they risk it?
Though I can't help but ask what anyone would consider a more appropriate ending? Maybe with all the parties still involved?
The question's open to anyone really.

I had always thought we would be exploring a possible third option since Azem left the convocation and didn't respond to Venat and her supporters (my head canon is that Azem was trying to find another solution and didn't agree with either side, but who knows). I also thought we would end up needing Zodiark to help us with the mysterious sound or something - or something where we needed to use both Hydaelyn and Zodiark as a solution because of the whole light and dark needing to be balanced trope. That was one possibility in my head, but I also suspected that no matter what solution we found, neither Hydaelyn or Zodiark would be able to remain alive, whether we killed both of them or if they died by some other means.

I definitely did not expect for them to go in this direction not because I was attached to certain characters and wanted to the story to go my way, but because it all seems so disjointed and hastily put together to me. It looks like they had to hurry up and finish the arc, so maybe they decided to use the time travel so they wouldn't have to address certain things. Who knows.

[Nilroreo]

This is absolutely disingenuous and false. The First Rejoining and Black Rose decimated both Aldenard and Ilsabard. There were survivors, in a broken and bleak world. The stories of the WoL gave them hope. It wasn't just Ironworks deciding for everyone. It was the survivors coming together and working toward that goal. And they worked on it for 200 years. 200 years in which nothing improved enough in their reality to weigh against that risky venture. They were looking to the past, no arguments there. But what future could they look forward to if nothing changed in that long to make them think another path was possible? They knew their timeline might disappear. It was worth it for them if another timeline had a better future.

Exactly! They were only doing what they could for the salvation of their star! They had their worlds shattered by a doomsday event and longed for the world they've lost. They determined that erasure of an entire world is preferable to living in hell. It's as you say, "It was worth it for them if another timeline had a better future."

Btw, can you guess which of the two I've been talking about?

[TaleraRistain]

Exactly! They were only doing what they could for the salvation of their star! They had their worlds shattered by a doomsday event and longed for the world they've lost. They determined that erasure of an entire world is preferable to living in hell. It's as you say, "It was worth it for them if another timeline had a better future."

Btw, can you guess which of the two I've been talking about?

One difference. The people in the 8th Umbral Calamity determined that their OWN erasure was preferable to living in hell. It was not just Ironworks but the survivors in that timeline banding together to work toward the goal of sending the Tower and G'raha back to avert the Calamity.

If the Ancients had stopped with the second sacrifice, it would be the same situation. But they wanted to sacrifice other new lives after the world was restored to a livable state just to get their own people inside Zodiark back.

[tokinokanatae]

It was not just Ironworks but the survivors in that timeline banding together to work toward the goal of sending the Tower and G'raha back to avert the Calamity.

Not true.

"They eventually arrived at the conclusion that they lacked the means to restore their shattered world, with their only viable option being to entrust future generations with the knowledge that they had accumulated, in the hope that their successors may one day find a solution. This was met with some resistance, however, as many expressed disapproval at the idea of forsaking those in the present day in order to save a world they would never live to see."

"Their aim was to change the past to create an alternate reality in which the Calamity never occurred─a feat rendered conceivable by their knowledge of the advanced technologies of fallen civilizations. However, many of those who would bear the burden of continued existence in a world ravaged by Black Rose failed to see this as a viable stratagem. Such responses were consistent with my projections, as it is generally the primary objective of all life-forms to secure their own survival in the here and now.

Many of Master Cid’s followers either refused to cooperate or expressed a desire to leave the Ironworks altogether. Certain former employees went as far as to appropriate equipment and supplies by force before heading into the wilderness to fend for themselves."

"In addition, by presenting their plan as an attempt to save the Warrior of Light rather than a bid to rewrite history, they were able to gain the support from survivors of many different species and subgroups."

In other words, the Ironworks couldn't get people on their side until they began lying about what they were planning to do by using our name.