Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[nighttimebunny]

Re: Zenos

Really, my big gripe with him is that his story was essentially done in Stormblood.

The ideas they brought in Endwalker were very interesting/promising, but they just didn't do anything with it. The fact that he could "body jack" others could have been a HUGE deal and would have made for intense intrigue. (is that really Y'shtola? Or any of the nation leaders? Aweful sus!)

..but it turned out to be a whole lotta nothing.

If he never comes back, I'll be fine. I don't hate him, but he's not really adding anything to the story for me. I prefer him dead to be honest.

The only way he could work in a serious way would be to live in exile, on another shard or continent..and even then I'm not sure what to do with him. The only meaningful thing I think they do with him is have him decide the only way to get more powerful is to draw on allies like we do and ultimately change him for the better.

That’s why I don’t think he’s done. If he is, he should’ve stayed dead in Stormblood because what was the point of even showing that he gained Ascian powers and dreams and whatnot? His role in EW could’ve been filled by someone else. That combined with the many clues and hints is just… weird. Yoshi P did say if something seems off, it’s for a good reason, and Zenos is VERY off right now I think.

[kaynide]

That’s why I don’t think he’s done. If he is, he should’ve stayed dead in Stormblood because what was the point of even showing that he gained Ascian powers and dreams and whatnot? His role in EW could’ve been filled by someone else. That combined with the many clues and hints is just… weird. Yoshi P did say if something seems off, it’s for a good reason, and Zenos is VERY off right now I think.

I mean, maybe, but ultimately I think it was just fan service; same reason we did Emet and Hytho’s Excellent Adventure. There are better ways to have done the story, but they wanted us to have our moment with fan favorites…and tie it all up as many loose ends as possible shark jumping or not.

The bigger question would be, if they bring him back what will be the point? And will that story be better than any countless others they could tell? Will it attract more players than deter? Zenos is utterly irredeemable at this point- his actions are entirely unforgivable.

They basically have a blank slate to do whatever they want to at this point, why would that be the story worth being told?

Those are the questions that they (the devs) would have to answer to keep me onboard.

[nighttimebunny]

I mean, maybe, but ultimately I think it was just fan service; same reason we did Emet and Hytho’s Excellent Adventure. There are better ways to have done the story, but they wanted us to have our moment with fan favorites…and tie it all up as many loose ends as possible shark jumping or not.

The bigger question would be, if they bring him back what will be the point? And will that story be better than any countless others they could tell? Will it attract more players than deter? Zenos is utterly irredeemable at this point- his actions are entirely unforgivable.

They basically have a blank slate to do whatever they want to at this point, why would that be the story worth being told?

Those are the questions that they (the devs) would have to answer to keep me onboard.

Just wondering-why are Emet and Meteion redeemable and forgivable, but not Zenos? Most of those Zenos has killed are the Garleans/Imperials who are our enemies anyway. He's messed with us and the Scions but never killed us. He didn't even want to be the prince/legatus, he was just forced to by his crappy father, who abused him as a child.

Meanwhile Emet literally turned a baby into a monster (he may have done something similar to Zenos), caused calamities aka widescale genocide, wanted to turn us into a monster and watch us kill our friends. But we forgave him, because he had a good reason.

With Meteion, it wasn't her fault, but she still literally killed entire stars and we forgave her. Graha Tia also says we must have sympathy for the Omnicrons, the murder robots. It's just weird to me, we redeem all these people/things who have done horrible things, but Zenos who has just killed his own people/our enemies is forever irredeemable, why?

I do agree that they need to make his story good. I trust them.

Also, it was absolutely not fan service. In the recent radio show, Yoshi P says that Emet's popularity had nothing to do with him playing a role in EW, so I doubt Zenos's role was for fan service, especially since he's less popular. They've stated a few times now that they do not take character popularity into account when writing the story.

[Jandor]

Just wondering-why are Emet and Meteion redeemable and forgivable, but not Zenos? Most of those Zenos has killed are the Garleans/Imperials who are our enemies anyway. He's messed with us and the Scions but never killed us. He didn't even want to be the prince/legatus, he was just forced to by his crappy father, who abused him as a child.

Meanwhile Emet literally turned a baby into a monster (he may have done something similar to Zenos), caused calamities aka widescale genocide, wanted to turn us into a monster and watch us kill our friends. But we forgave him, because he had a good reason.

With Meteion, it wasn't her fault, but she still literally killed entire stars and we forgave her. Graha Tia also says we must have sympathy for the Omnicrons, the murder robots. It's just weird to me, we redeem all these people/things who have done horrible things, but Zenos who has just killed his own people/our enemies is forever irredeemable, why?

I do agree that they need to make his story good. I trust them.

Also, it was absolutely not fan service. In the recent radio show, Yoshi P says that Emet's popularity had nothing to do with him playing a role in EW, so I doubt Zenos's role was for fan service, especially since he's less popular. They've stated a few times now that they do not take character popularity into account when writing the story.

He might potentially be reedemable and forgivable in a personal sense, just like Emet and Meteion, but just like Emet and Meteion I'm less sure of his potential to fit into the wider story. Less so in fact, because the wider public know who Zenos is and what he has done.

A similar scenario comes up in the ranged physical role quests.

Yotsuyu was widely known and hated by the people of Doma for what she had done. Tsuyu came back, had a bit of an arc, turns out her parents were abusive just like Zenos were, and Hien was prepared to give her a pass as a result. Plenty of people in Doma weren't prepared to do the same though, to them she was still a monster and all Hien had done was deny them any justice.

[kaynide]

Just wondering-why are Emet and Meteion redeemable and forgivable, but not Zenos?

They aren't, in my opinion. All of them are welcome to die in a fire that is reserved for genocidal villains. As likeable as Emet is, he's a bad guy.

Emet's only saving grace is that he has a reason to do what he's doing, and from his point of view he is correct. I would certainly destroy countless ant hills if it meant I could bring back long-dead friends. The warrior of light already kills countless monsters/beastmen because we believe what we are doing is correct. His problem is that we are the ants in this scenario.

Meteion is different in that her "race" wanted to wipe us out, but the individual we met was trying not to listen to them. Her saving grace is her innocence and simply not knowing better. She's essentially a computer- a badly programmed AI. Badly programmed AIs are not forgivable or not- their creators are to blame.

[TaleraRistain]

Just wondering-why are Emet and Meteion redeemable and forgivable, but not Zenos? Most of those Zenos has killed are the Garleans/Imperials who are our enemies anyway. He's messed with us and the Scions but never killed us. He didn't even want to be the prince/legatus, he was just forced to by his crappy father, who abused him as a child.

Meanwhile Emet literally turned a baby into a monster (he may have done something similar to Zenos), caused calamities aka widescale genocide, wanted to turn us into a monster and watch us kill our friends. But we forgave him, because he had a good reason.

With Meteion, it wasn't her fault, but she still literally killed entire stars and we forgave her. Graha Tia also says we must have sympathy for the Omnicrons, the murder robots. It's just weird to me, we redeem all these people/things who have done horrible things, but Zenos who has just killed his own people/our enemies is forever irredeemable, why?

It's a bit funny but Zenos answered it himself in a meta way. Their reasons are good enough. His reasons aren't. I completely agree with you that there's a double standard there.

[CKNovel]

Emet-Selch can't be forgiven.
While his actions can be understood, it doesn't justify the crimes.
To him, it still was the correct choice. What if you had to exterminate ants for the sake of saving your friends and family? Of course you'd exterminate the ants.
If those ants had the intelligence of humans they would see you as a mass murderer and an enemy to take down.

Meteion is not the direct cause.
It was the hive mind that caused the final days and took possession of Meteion's body.
Simply put, picture if you were trying to convince anti-vaxx on twitter that their logic is wrong and they should reconsider. Your voice would be drowned by the negative emotion of the masses.

SB Zenos was almost redeemable.
He was a general and only obeying orders. If he wasn't a prince, he probably would've done something else than taking part in the war crimes.
During any war, "murder is okay" because you're doing it for your country and that if you don't, you'll be executed.

But that's at EW that Zenos is not redeemable.
Starts a civil war by murdering the emperor.
Enslaves and make the captured work to death.
Try to start the Final Days, meaning everyone on the planet will experience traumatic events or in the worst case lose their soul.
All of that for what? A duel that would make him feel alive.

Zenos has no empathy, he can't see others as something else than tools.

[nighttimebunny]

They aren't, in my opinion. All of them are welcome to die in a fire that is reserved for genocidal villains. As likeable as Emet is, he's a bad guy.

Emet's only saving grace is that he has a reason to do what he's doing, and from his point of view he is correct. I would certainly destroy countless ant hills if it meant I could bring back long-dead friends. The warrior of light already kills countless monsters/beastmen because we believe what we are doing is correct. His problem is that we are the ants in this scenario.

Meteion is different in that her "race" wanted to wipe us out, but the individual we met was trying not to listen to them. Her saving grace is her innocence and simply not knowing better. She's essentially a computer- a badly programmed AI. Badly programmed AIs are not forgivable or not- their creators are to blame.

Yet the game forces you to forgive them. I just don’t, but I was forced to hold Meteion’s hand anyway. So people should stop complaining about having to fight Zenos at the end (not saying you are complaining just in general have seen a lot of people saying this) because we’re all forced to do crap in this game we don’t necessarily agree with.

I’m grateful to Zenos for helping us with Endsinger and getting rid of the annoying and horrible Varis and his black rose lmao. I’m not thankful or happy with Emet or Meteion at all, they committed genocide, I don’t really care if they had good reasons for it. Zenos didn’t cause calamities or eradicate entire stars, he was just sad and desperate for a connection.

Just going to say I do not hate Emet or Meteion at all. I think they’re very well written.

[CKNovel]

Again, nothing says the WoL forgives Emet for his actions.

And that's one of the major reasons why he's going back to the lifestream, he knows it's not his world and that he doesn't deserves to exist in this one.
To his old world, he's a savior. To the current world, he's a monster. He's not forgotten but his motives are understandable.
"The future you seek is not the past we loved."
"But thought you defeated me, my ideals are inviolate, Invincible."

He still believes what he was doing was the right thing to do. And we would do the same.

Meteion is something else, the blue bird we know is not responsible for the Final Days, it's the hivemind composed of her sisters.
We don't resent Thancred for doing things when he was under Lahabrea's control, right? This is the same thing.

[kaynide]

I don’t recall ever forgiving Emet, just coming to an understanding that our goals were incompatible. Fortunately he bowed out of the fight gracefully. We can accept why people do bad things and even accept them as part of our story without truly forgiving them.

Like, think of the dad who cheats on his wife and eventually marries the side girl. It’s awful to get through, but certainly plenty of families have come to accept their situation and figured out how to live peacefully or even in a friendly way. Doesn’t mean the mom will ever forgive that dad.