The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[Theodric]

We know, you make it painfully obvious every time you post, to a very annoying degree.

Much like how certain posters make it painfully obvious that they loathe the Ancients, Ascians and/or Garleans...though mysteriously they're never called out despite being far more vocal and prone to toxicity and personal attacks.

Funny, that!

[Rulakir]

I dislike the writing around Venat to an extreme degree. It's screwed up on every level.

I can't help but think Venat/Hydaelyn were subject to gratuitous rewrites between ShB and EW. The inconsistencies are simply too numerous for this to have been their plan all along.

Much like how certain posters make it painfully obvious that they loathe the Ancients, Ascians and/or Garleans.

Even in threads that have nothing to do with them, which is the weird part.

[Kordarion]

I can't help but think Venat/Hydaelyn were subject to gratuitous rewrites between ShB and EW. The inconsistencies are simply too numerous for this to have been their plan all along.

Or perhaps its as simple as having both expansions being presented from a different point of view. Shadowbringers was in many ways the expansion that allowed for Emet-Selch and by extension the ascians to provide their side of the story, their belief around what happened, same as Endwalker is Venat/Hydaelyn's turn to speak her truth of events. Neither Emet-Selch or Venat are, realistically speaking, reliable narrators as both have their own agendas and goals that they want to see happen. The closest thing to we get to a reliable narrator in Shadowbringers is in the Amanesis Anyder cutscenes, and even then they come from Emet-Selch's daydream of Amourot. The first time we got any concrete proof of what ancient society was like was in Elpis where we actually interacted with their society in its true state.

If that explanation doesn't suffice for you I have another idea of why the portrayals are different, there are multiple mentions in Endwalker about a confluence of our present time and the ancient world's time, what if the stable time loop we are in wasn't as perfect as originally planned? When we first speak with Hydaelyn after completing the Aitiascope it sounds as if she had never met us in person before then, despite us having met her in Elpis. At the end of Elpis Venat also mentions the possibility of our actions having created an alternate timeline that could fuse back into our own. Therefore it could be possible that the Venat we see in Shadowbringers is a Venat that never encountered us in Elpis and as such lacked knowledge of the future, it can also explain how Elidibus isn't sure he saw us in the past, he could be confused because he has memories of both timelines due to the new one being made but not yet re-joined.

And Meteion could still have ended up becoming the Endsinger because she still would have received the report from her sister regardless of our involvement and still run off to hide from Hermes where the knowledge she gained would still drive her to desire the end of all life.

Even in threads that have nothing to do with them, which is the weird part.

The pot calling the kettle black, both sides are guilty of bringing it up in places where it is not relevant and going tit for tat in who loathes who isn't good for a healthy conversation but from what I have seen in the last few days it is the 'we loathe Venat' group who starts a lot of these revolving door arguments by being the first to voice their complaints. You and Veloran are prime examples of this.

[Rannie]

Or perhaps its as simple as having both expansions being presented from a different point of view. Shadowbringers was in many ways the expansion that allowed for Emet-Selch and by extension the ascians to provide their side of the story, their belief around what happened, same as Endwalker is Venat/Hydaelyn's turn to speak her truth of events. Neither Emet-Selch or Venat are, realistically speaking, reliable narrators as both have their own agendas and goals that they want to see happen. The closest thing to we get to a reliable narrator in Shadowbringers is in the Amanesis Anyder cutscenes, and even then they come from Emet-Selch's daydream of Amourot. The first time we got any concrete proof of what ancient society was like was in Elpis where we actually interacted with their society in its true state.

If that explanation doesn't suffice for you I have another idea of why the portrayals are different, there are multiple mentions in Endwalker about a confluence of our present time and the ancient world's time, what if the stable time loop we are in wasn't as perfect as originally planned? When we first speak with Hydaelyn after completing the Aitiascope it sounds as if she had never met us in person before then, despite us having met her in Elpis. At the end of Elpis Venat also mentions the possibility of our actions having created an alternate timeline that could fuse back into our own. Therefore it could be possible that the Venat we see in Shadowbringers is a Venat that never encountered us in Elpis and as such lacked knowledge of the future, it can also explain how Elidibus isn't sure he saw us in the past, he could be confused because he has memories of both timelines due to the new one being made but not yet re-joined.

And Meteion could still have ended up becoming the Endsinger because she still would have received the report from her sister regardless of our involvement and still run off to hide from Hermes where the knowledge she gained would still drive her to desire the end of all life.



The pot calling the kettle black, both sides are guilty of bringing it up in places where it is not relevant and going tit for tat in who loathes who isn't good for a healthy conversation but from what I have seen in the last few days it is the 'we loathe Venat' group who starts a lot of these revolving door arguments by being the first to voice their complaints. You and Veloran are prime examples of this.

Anamnesis Anyder are actual ruins left over on the first from the Unsundered world just like the buildings the Ondo live in in the tempest. The description for the dungeon itself even states they are "Deep in the Tempest-deeper still than the phantom Amaurot of Emet-Selch's design- lies what remains of Anyder's ancient edifices. It is an unexplored corner of this bed of knowledge that the Scions now travel, in hopes that what has long slumbers forgotten may be brought to the surface once more."

It's the truth but it is missing pieces due to it being sundered as well.

[Kordarion]

Anamnesis Anyder are actual ruins left over on the first from the Unsundered world just like the buildings the Ondo live in in the tempest. The description for the dungeon itself even states they are "Deep in the Tempest-deeper still than the phantom Amaurot of Emet-Selch's design- lies what remains of Anyder's ancient edifices. It is an unexplored corner of this bed of knowledge that the Scions now travel, in hopes that what has long slumbers forgotten may be brought to the surface once more."

It's the truth but it is missing pieces due to it being sundered as well.

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks for letting me know, it certainly does reinforce my point then that it is the only piece of unbiased ancient knowledge pre-Elpis.

[Cleretic]

That purple crystal does get a little cameo, it or at least a similarly-colored big crystal is under the Zodiark arena. It was definitely a relic of when they didn't really know what they were doing with the Ascians yet (or even if they were ever doing anything else with the game, period), though. There was a recent bit with Radio Eorzea where Yoshi-P mentioned that; apparently the story bible Thancred's VA got given early on had something completely different, because they only figured out the angle on the Ascians much later. Likely, the same reason Emmerololth has a weird morality status.

And that's not necessarily a problem. Very few stories start and finish being written with the exact same plan persisting, because sometimes you'll just find out you have a better idea. Ideally you'll want to cover your tracks on that in later drafts, but if you're writing a serialized story of some kind, you just need to accept it to some degree. (The JoJo's Bizarre Adventure fandom has an 'Araki forgot' meme about all the plot threads the author sets up and drops, that should more accurately be 'Araki Follows the Fun' because he readily admits to doing exactly this, and the series is better for it.)

In fact, while I agree that Elpis was probably where that was centered, I completely disagree about why and how. Because the developers have never spoken about Venat and Hydaelyn in a way that suggests much changed especially late, but they have directly said that Emet-Selch's popularity blindsided them. I very much doubt Endwalker was being written in full at that time, but it was definitely being planned out, and I suspect that the feeling of 'we need to bring back Emet-Selch, he's a hit' was what elevated a shorter 'find the truth in the Ancients' time' segment (maybe an extended solo duty or a dungeon) into a whole zone, which then gave the intended focuses of that segment (Hermes, Venat, and Meteion) some more room to stretch and be fuller characters as well. And I doubt anyone here would say that Elpis was worse because they wrote Emet-Selch into it.

...I'd say I enjoyed it less because of him, but that's different.

Anamnesis Anyder are actual ruins left over on the first from the Unsundered world just like the buildings the Ondo live in in the tempest. The description for the dungeon itself even states they are "Deep in the Tempest-deeper still than the phantom Amaurot of Emet-Selch's design- lies what remains of Anyder's ancient edifices. It is an unexplored corner of this bed of knowledge that the Scions now travel, in hopes that what has long slumbers forgotten may be brought to the surface once more."

It's the truth but it is missing pieces due to it being sundered as well.

I still think it's weird how that recording shows the ethereal Amaurot shades. Again, possibly a rewrites thing--they maybe didn't know they'd be giving the Ancients faces yet--and works to maintain their mystery, but it does mean that apparently Amaurot is just fine with seeing each other as weird ghosts all the time; Emet-Selch and Elidibus' memories could've faded over time, shades made in creation magic might have a reason for that form, and ghosts might just look like that, but the only way I can imagine it also persists to the Anamnesis recording is because the Ancients just want to record like that.

[Vyrerus]

because the Ancients just want to record like that.

They put on their, "we all wanna pretend we're a collective" filter! :3

[Rannie]

They put on their, "we all wanna pretend we're a collective" filter! :3

Resistance is Futile you will be ethereal.

[Nilroreo]

...

Sorry if this has been discussed already but this can't simply be a matter of viewing things from a different perspective as inconsistencies with Hydaelyn's character can be seen even as far back as Heavensward. I recall there being a line back when she used Minfilia as her mouthpiece where she states she's failed at preventing 7 rejoining's, which we now know can't possibly be true since her entire plan hinged on us having come as far as we have. Considering she needed those rejoining's to happen, I'd sooner call them victories on her end.

Also, on the matter of converging timelines, ignoring that this expansion seems to brush aside what we've already learned about time travel in Shadowbringers, assuming that timelines are indeed "converging", I feel most of these changes would have occurred only after our trip to Elpis. Venat at the start of Endwalker mentions honoring some promise she made in another age, and Elidibus's words suggest we will eventually meet him in Elpis, but both of these conversations happen before we've even done anything to change the course of history. The simple fact that characters are referencing events that will, NOT might happen tells me the writers just want us to assume that it really is just a perfect closed loop.

[Kordarion]

Sorry if this has been discussed already but this can't simply be a matter of viewing things from a different perspective as inconsistencies with Hydaelyn's character can be seen even as far back as Heavensward. I recall there being a line back when she used Minfilia as her mouthpiece where she states she's failed at preventing 7 rejoining's, which we now know can't possibly be true since her entire plan hinged on us having come as far as we have. Considering she needed those rejoining's to happen, I'd sooner call them victories on her end.

Also, on the matter of converging timelines, ignoring that this expansion seems to brush aside what we've already learned about time travel in Shadowbringers, assuming that timelines are indeed "converging", I feel most of these changes would have occurred only after our trip to Elpis. Venat at the start of Endwalker mentions honoring some promise she made in another age, and Elidibus's words suggest we will eventually meet him in Elpis, but both of these conversations happen before we've even done anything to change the course of history. The simple fact that characters are referencing events that will, NOT might happen tells me the writers just want us to assume that it really is just a perfect closed loop.

The thing with that Heavensward explanation is that during Heavensward they were re-writing the backstory of who the ascians were and why they where doing it, Yoshi-P said this in a recent interview. So it is possible that, that was a relic from the original iteration of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark dynamic.

Except that it was Shadowbringers, not Endwalker that caused problems when it comes to time travel in the story. In the Alexander raids there is plenty of time travel, all of which, (as far as I am aware), was of the closed loop variety making Shadowbringers the time travel problematic expansion. In regards to Elidibus him saying that is just before we travel to the past so could be, as I explained, a symptom of the simultaneous creation of and merging with the new timeline. The same could possibly be said about Hydaelyn considering that like Elidibus they are both primals and as such time could interact a bit wonkily with them.

tldr: they already messed up the rules of time travel in Shadowbringers so anything could happen when it comes to merging timelines.