What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[SDaemon]

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want someone wiping out my friends, family, neighbours, cat and literally every single person I have ever known or met because some deluded individual wanted to become a 'supreme deity' and chose to sell out both her race and civilisation for the sake of a time traveller who she had known for less than a day.

Each to their own, though!

Ah yes because becoming "a supreme deity" was completely Venat's endgame for summoning Hydealyn, must have missed that tidbit in the story. /shrug

[Theodric]

Ah yes because becoming "a supreme deity" was completely Venat's endgame for summoning Hydealyn, must have missed that tidbit in the story. /shrug

It wasn't her primary motivation but that's what she referred to herself as, after lying repeatedly about the circumstances surrounding the downfall of her people, leading others to falsely believe that Zodiark was an evil, power-hungry entity and inflicting untold suffering upon many individuals without their consent. Furthermore despite fawning over the player character's memories she still robbed her own people not only of their lives but the connections they had to loved ones as well as their memories.

It's more explicit in the French localisation but Venat herself, as Hydaelyn, admits that she can't really think of an excuse for what she did. Though in the English localisation, Venat concedes that there was no kindness or justice in the act.

In other words, people are absolutely free to consider her to be monstrous and treacherous if they see fit. As many more would, I suspect, if it were their loved ones that had been screwed over by her actions.

[SDaemon]

It wasn't her primary motivation but that's what she referred to herself as, after lying repeatedly about the circumstances surrounding the downfall of her people, leading others to falsely believe that Zodiark was an evil, power-hungry entity and inflicting untold suffering upon many individuals without their consent. Furthermore despite fawning over the player character's memories she still robbed her own people not only of their lives but the connections they had to loved ones as well as their memories.

It's more explicit in the French localisation but Venat herself, as Hydaelyn, admits that she can't really think of an excuse for what she did. Though in the English localisation, Venat concedes that there was no kindness or justice in the act.

In other words, people are absolutely free to consider her to be monstrous and treacherous if they see fit. As many more would, I suspect, if it were their loved ones that had been screwed over by her actions.

I'm not calling her justice or good or any of that. crimsonwitch made a comment that it was silly writing to bet on the WoL in that situation and I disagree. The situation at hand makes perfect sense to me why she would place her hopes on the WoL. Yes, she refers to herself as a supreme deity because that is effectively what she has become, but that doesn't give any real insight to her motivation toward summoning Hydealyn. I don't believe Hydealyn was anymore morally justified sacrificing a fraction of her people to sunder the world and give the sundered mankind a means of overcoming Meteion than Zodiark was for sacrificing his followers to save the ancient world.

[linayar]

Death may not be the only solution, but clearly keeping them alive is adding more problems.

What problems?

Considering the whole ultima thule plot point completely contradicts the theme of the expansion. I’ve stated it many times but it’s true and it’s just not right lol.

How so?

Also, it’s arguable for your former point. Considering there’s always been some bias towards Hydaelyn, it would’ve been nice for once for there to be equality. Especially since they want to say time and time again not to judge a book by its cover. I’m still waiting for us to get some minions of the antagonists at any rate. Where’s our Emet,Hythlo,Zodiark,Elidibus minions hm? Seems there’s even some bias in regards to that. Venat gets hers for genociding the world, we should get some for the ascians then.

Not judging a book by its cover doesn't mean all books have to be treated the same. On the contrary, it means even if they get different treatment, you can still appreciate the book that lacks the "appreciation" that you think it deserves. Equality has nothing to do with whether or not you should judge a book by its cover.

We are Azem, cause Azem is a Title, that Emet-Selch gave the WoL during the Fight with Elidibus.

I wasn't talking about the title. Venat was Azem too, and we are not Venat.

Also, just because a portion of the community enjoyed the story doesn’t mean there aren’t problems with it. Considering a lot of those people are the same ones who are saying don’t look too into it.

On the other hand, just because a portion of the community has a problem with the story doesn't mean everyone else should either.

And there is indeed such a thing as looking too deep into something that you can view something harmless to be an issue.

Lets turn the question around. Why are you all so adamant that no one should die? I mean specifics, like addressing my reason why you need occasional deaths.

Eh, personally, I am not adamant that no one should die. I believe that's the writer's call to make, and they have made their choice. I do not agree that anyone has to die for the story to be "real," but I have no problem with anyone dying.

Yep. Which, in itself, is completely understandable - and they seemingly had the means to do as much. It's why the final zone felt so cheap to me. On one hand, literally everybody else is told to 'move on' but when the Warrior of Light loses his companions, they're brought back from the dead. In Y'shtola's case it isn't the first or even second time, either.

Why are you ignoring the method by which the Ascians are using to bring back their dead? That completely differentiates it from what happened to us, and only enhances the fact that it's not their desire to bring back their dead that we have a problem with.

[KizuyaKatogami]

What problems?

How so?

Not judging a book by its cover doesn't mean all books have to be treated the same. On the contrary, it means even if they get different treatment, you can still appreciate the book that lacks the "appreciation" that you think it deserves. Equality has nothing to do with whether or not you should judge a book by its cover.

I wasn't talking about the title. Venat was Azem too, and we are not Venat.

On the other hand, just because a portion of the community has a problem with the story doesn't mean everyone else should either.

And there is indeed such a thing as looking too deep into something that you can view something harmless to be an issue.

Eh, personally, I am not adamant that no one should die. I believe that's the writer's call to make, and they have made their choice. I do not agree that anyone has to die for the story to be "real," but I have no problem with anyone dying.

Why are you ignoring the method by which the Ascians are using to bring back their dead? That completely differentiates it from what happened to us, and only enhances the fact that it's not their desire to bring back their dead that we have a problem with.

In this situation it does, because they state time and time again they’re essentially equal. Neither is good nor bad yet one is painted in a much better light than the other and is given far better treatment. As for the problems, it’s like i said, that plot point goes against the theme. The theme of this expansion and even since the start of the game has been loss,suffering,dealing with loss etc.It’s even in the main song of this expansion. Loss and fire. We see it throughout the expansions of characters having to deal with the death of close ones. Yet, this expansion in Ultima Thule, instead of accepting they’re gone, the scions are brought back from the dead. The very thing people have bashed the ascians/ancients for attempting to do for their people. A last side note on the hydaelyn and zodiark thing, i do find it a bit humorous how people say we don’t need both sides to be equal, yada yada, and yes i guarantee if it was the other way around and it was Hydaelyn who was shafted and portrayed not as good as Zodiark people would be raising pitchforks. In the end though my last comment still stands, where are the ascian minions and zodiark minion? How have we not gotten an Emet minion yet, but Venat of all people gets one for genociding the world.

[Fayt1203]

the scions are brought back from the dead. .

I don't want to nitpicking anything but they were not dead to begin with so we did not bring them back from the dead. they became the elements( like Estinien became the wind and so on) that paid the way forward for us. but they would eventually die if nothing would be done in time.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I don't want to nitpicking anything but they were not dead to begin with so we did not bring them back from the dead. they became the elements( like Estinien became the wind and so on) that paid the way forward for us. but they would eventually die if nothing would be done in time.

They were for all intents and purposes dead had we not intervened. The point is, the theme has been learning to deal with loss and death and moving forward. Yet we still bring them back so what exactly is the moral of the story here? Just be the main protagonists of the story and you can be resurrected? Think about all of the people in Thavnair and Garlemald who actually had to suffer. Meanwhile the scions “sacrifice” themselves only to be brought back moments later. So much for loss and suffering, they felt none of it. That’s exactly my point. It’s no different than the whole ticking time bomb thing in ShB with the scions only for it to amount to nothing. It’s these constant death flags and fakeout deaths that just amount to nothing that attributed to dislike of this expansion. Not very good writing imo.