6.0 Summoner: Thoughts on an Unsuccessful Rework After 1 Month of Gameplay

[zcrash970]

I still play SMN because I can't let go but it really doesn't satisfy me. Not even my summons make me proud as they're nothing but aesthetics and deep down I can't overlook that.

Same but I only use it for dungeons every now and then. Mainly when I'm tired and want to go smooth brain and not think about anything. It's my autopilot class now

[RopeDrink]

This is all well and good if you consider decision-making paramount to how good or fun a job is -- which is subjective in itself. Personally, I'm all for variety. As someone who mained WHM throughout the years, which mostly devolved into throwing stones or manually spamming Stoneskin (and being meme'd on by more "engaging" healers), and isn't all that different despite all the reworks and changes, this doesn't apply to me.

I played all casters (except SMN) to 80/90 and recently went on a rant about how I never had interest in SMN the other day, old or new, until I realized that I had never really given it a chance. It was just 'that job' which was tied to my levelling of SCH, when I had already gotten many DPS, Healers and Tanks to max and enjoyed them enough to not branch out any more. So, over the last few days, I decided to at least give it a try, and I have no comparison bias as I never bothered with it before the rework.

First thing I noticed is that doing their job-quests (after Endwalker MSQ, and especially its respective Healer role-quest) really goes against the entire story. The second was the absolute lack of buttons. It is hands down the most noticeable when it comes to being a hot-bar graveyard, even compared to MCH and RDM. Yes, I know -- if you treated all the hidden buttons as normal buttons this would be different, but still. Having said that, I'd be lying if I didn't say the simplicity wasn't nice -- given I mostly play very busy jobs, so something different is always welcome. The fact it can cast 99% of its spells on the move is something I will always appreciate, as is the ability to raise, even if RDM does it infinitely better.

The damage isn't bad by any stretch, though I can only discuss low-end content. I'm obviously not rocking Ultimates and Aspho Savage on a job I haven't played, but those I've seen playing it alongside me have never noticeably underperformed, and while levelling through dungeons is the absolute worst gauge of anything, I'm certainly dominating that side of it too.

Admittedly, it is very simple. Aside from maybe misplacing the odd oGCD, it's hard for even someone like me to fail. The damage may not be rocking the universe, but Baha/Pheo always feels like a mini-nuke phase, and you're never left out so hard that all you can do is mash Ruin. It may not require a lot of thinking, but you're always doing something, as simple as it is. I can appreciate that, but that will irk people who enjoy a bit of complexity -- which I also do on other jobs -- but there's something to be said for how it plays now. Ultimately, it will all boil down to subjectives and preferences. The logs and comparisons I've seen haven't placed SMN badly at all -- outside of the fact that other jobs are more commonly played up at the top. I mean, RDM has always been the go-to caster, much like BLM has often been lauded for immobility. As untrue as that is now, it is still an inflexible turret, and also waiting damage buffs.

TLDR -- I would never see myself maining this, but I can't fathom how one might say it fails, or that the rework is bad, unless you merely preferred how it was. If it's a case of damage or placement, such things are merely a few tweaks away. If it's complexity, well... Join the various other clubs. It's fun seeing the WoW refugees push over into high-end raiding with little class knowledge and bemoan how WHM still remains little more than a glare-bot with nothing to do, or how certain other DPS jobs also retain a very stringent one-note rotation and little else.

[Shuuli]

I think comparing Vercure to the Phoenix heal doesn't work as you have Phoenix only every two minutes. I've been in countless situations where it did absolutely nothing as everybody was in full health, where as you can use Vercure whenever you want and you can keep a tank or yourself long enough to chain raise the healers and they handle the rest. Just do Vercure > Verraise > Vercure > Verraise > Vercure and so on. It's more useful than what SMN has on every level.

In my personal opinion, SMN should do more damage, however I don't want to get that "for free". I want more buttons to press and more cast times to earn myself that. As many people have said before, SMN right now is a good foundation, but we're at level 90. There should be at least some kind of complexity involved that makes the job engaging and rewarding when playing.

I still play SMN because I can't let go but it really doesn't satisfy me. Not even my summons make me proud as they're nothing but aesthetics and deep down I can't overlook that.

People can say summoner has Physick, costs less, can be cast faster and has a higher heal potency... Too bad it does not scale with INT which is summoners main stat... I just do not understand this ability for summoner at all. They should really re-think this ability too. Why is it there and what is its purpose. Cause ATM its a button I only use in low level dungeons in crisis and that's it.

[Katie_Kitty]

I think comparing Vercure to the Phoenix heal doesn't work as you have Phoenix only every two minutes. I've been in countless situations where it did absolutely nothing as everybody was in full health, where as you can use Vercure whenever you want and you can keep a tank or yourself long enough to chain raise the healers and they handle the rest. Just do Vercure > Verraise > Vercure > Verraise > Vercure and so on. It's more useful than what SMN has on every level.

In my personal opinion, SMN should do more damage, however I don't want to get that "for free". I want more buttons to press and more cast times to earn myself that. As many people have said before, SMN right now is a good foundation, but we're at level 90. There should be at least some kind of complexity involved that makes the job engaging and rewarding when playing.

I still play SMN because I can't let go but it really doesn't satisfy me. Not even my summons make me proud as they're nothing but aesthetics and deep down I can't overlook that.

This is such a ridiculous take on the subject.

Nobody should be using vercure for any reason when there's an enemy targetable. It's a GCD that does zero damage and as a DPS that is unacceptable to use. Comparing it to Phoenix heal is a huge joke, Phoenix heal is something that happens incidentally while simply performing your normal damage rotation on Summoner, but vercure use reduces RDM GCD damage output to zero. Phoenix heal is far more useful than vercure will ever be.

[dinnertime]

TLDR -- I would never see myself maining this, but I can't fathom how one might say it fails, or that the rework is bad, unless you merely preferred how it was. If it's a case of damage or placement, such things are merely a few tweaks away. If it's complexity, well... Join the various other clubs. It's fun seeing the WoW refugees push over into high-end raiding with little class knowledge and bemoan how WHM still remains little more than a glare-bot with nothing to do, or how certain other DPS jobs also retain a very stringent one-note rotation and little else.

I'll give you a different perspective. This rework failed because it failed to completely fix the complaints this job had. Essentially what they did was not fix most issues but instead remove DoTs (a very disliked thing thematically, so sure I'll take it) and the pet class element (which still exists as Carbuncle, so not completely) and then added in bigger, flashier summons which something people asked for in years which is at least good, but not enough to justify the rework.

I've listed out more issues in detail but it's a couple pages back somewhere now.

Also a job being simple to pick up and play is completely fine, but it's not healthy for a job to be extremely easy to master either. It's boring. There's no incentive to maximize what you do.
People were under the impression that SMN was the most complex job ever but it... really wasn't. It had a very straightforward priority flowchart. Also people misunderstood its past issues were what made it complex and old SMN players liked it, but no we absolutely not, we only dealt with it. We wanted them gone, and unfortunately some of those issues still linger with this rework.

[rewd]

This is such a ridiculous take on the subject.

Nobody should be using vercure for any reason when there's an enemy targetable. It's a GCD that does zero damage and as a DPS that is unacceptable to use. Comparing it to Phoenix heal is a huge joke, Phoenix heal is something that happens incidentally while simply performing your normal damage rotation on Summoner, but vercure use reduces RDM GCD damage output to zero. Phoenix heal is far more useful than vercure will ever be.

You are really overreacting and the only ridiculous take is yours, no offense.

Vercure can be used in emergencies and the fact that is available at any time is what makes it powerful. Everyone knows it's on the GCD and that it should be avoided as much as possible, which is why the example was "healers are dead and you have to keep people alive while raising".

RDM can do that, SMN can't (on demand). SMN has strong heals you cannot control which leads to a) heals being wasted because no healing is needed or b) heals being redundant because a healer is already taking care of the raidwide anyway.

Vercure is niche, but helpful, powerful and reliable when you actually end up needing it. It's not that hard.

[IchiExorz]

You are really overreacting and the only ridiculous take is yours, no offense.

Vercure can be used in emergencies and the fact that is available at any time is what makes it powerful. Everyone knows it's on the GCD and that it should be avoided as much as possible, which is why the example was "healers are dead and you have to keep people alive while raising".

RDM can do that, SMN can't (on demand). SMN has strong heals you cannot control which leads to a) heals being wasted because no healing is needed or b) heals being redundant because a healer is already taking care of the raidwide anyway.

Vercure is niche, but helpful, powerful and reliable when you actually end up needing it. It's not that hard.

I think both kinda suck.
RDM: permanent access to heal but sacrifices DPS.
SMN: very limited access to heal but doesn't sacrifice DPS

Both suck in their own way. Allthough I personally prefer RDM's heal for casual/solo stuff where how much dps you do doesn't really matter. Where SMN's heal could be more useful if the situation arises at the right time without them having to sacrifice dps in harder content I suppose.
Either way SMN seems to have this problem a lot with their shield & buff as well. It's bad design and I hope SE re-reworks parts of SMN (I don't mean revert parts.)

[Mondschnee]

You are really overreacting and the only ridiculous take is yours, no offense.

Vercure can be used in emergencies and the fact that is available at any time is what makes it powerful. Everyone knows it's on the GCD and that it should be avoided as much as possible, which is why the example was "healers are dead and you have to keep people alive while raising".

RDM can do that, SMN can't (on demand). SMN has strong heals you cannot control which leads to a) heals being wasted because no healing is needed or b) heals being redundant because a healer is already taking care of the raidwide anyway.

Vercure is niche, but helpful, powerful and reliable when you actually end up needing it. It's not that hard.

Thank you for pointing that out.
I was kinda expecting for someone to show up and make a derogatory comment because that's how forums just work ig but I'm glad you stepped forward to explain.

[Megguido]

I think people underestimate SMN's heals. Phoenix raidwide regen is meh because we can't use it whenever we want, but Rekindle is another deal. It is a 1400 potency regen that triggers like an Excog on a 30s timer. We can put it on the main tank and get the full value out of it (unless the boss is not hitting the tank for more than 30s, which is probably downtime where we shouldn't summon Phoenix in the first place). It's free to cast and might save the healer a healing spell on the tank.

Rekindle won't clutch save a raid with 3 raises in a row on the healers while spot healing the tank when everything goes south, but when things are going OK that's a pretty good ability imo.

[Thoosa]

I think new summoner is fine tbh - it’s way better than the previous iteration where death was a huge dps loss and it felt like a job you needed maximum effort for little reward. Also it didn’t feel like a summoner - just a dot class that occasionally summoned pets.

BLM is still available if you want to optimise and there’s probably still some room on summoner to optimise if you’re really good.