Still the Warrior of Light in 6.x and beyond? [Spoilers through ShB]

[Kordarion]

The body horror in shadowbringers was what, one scene? And of someone we hardly knew. Second half of thavnair was pretty dark but ultimately short lived. Same with Garlemald. Didn’t help that directly after we’re having a lunch date with the scions. Compare it though to earlier 14 where the very first dungeon you do is the abode of a bunch of pirates housing kidnapped children and sex slaves, one of the 50 dungeons being about a woman who couldn’t deal with the death of her beloved so she turned to necromancy,body defilement,zombification etc to try and bring him back, ultimately cherishing his severed head.

If being short lived is a disqualifying characteristic then I would argue that both of your examples combined are more short lived than the second half of Thavnir. Let alone the other darker parts of Stormblood, Shadowbringers and Endwalker, for example Yotsuyu's childhood and teenage abuse at the hands of her family before being married off and latter being forced into prostitution, Yotsuyu's rein of terror in Doma, including but not limited to making family members kill each other to prove their loyalty to her, Eulmore and eating the flesh of its own sin eaterified populace without knowing they were doing so (Soylent green), the WOL being corrupted into a monster by the light aether they absorbed with the intent of saving a world, the existential nihilism of all of the dead races in Endwalker, Endwalker bringing up the eventual heat death of the universe and the finite nature of all life, Fordola massacring her own troops to try and halt the alliance during the second half of Ala Migho, and Meteion's quest to permanently kill every living being in the universe just to name a few.

Of course if we look outside of FF then we can find franchises that are even more grim dark than those, Halo with a collection of genocidal fanatics trying to kill every last human and the flood, a terrifying body horror plague that corrupts all living beings in the universe and that was only stopped by first wiping out all life in the universe to stop its spread, and not to mention the grandfather of grim dark Warhammer 40K. It has the works, four gods determined to flood the universe in either blood, plagues, hedonism or treachery and mutation, a hive mind hell bent on consuming all life in the galaxy, mid controlling space communists, the orks whose only purpose in life is to fight anyone and everyone, plus countless species who only want to destroy or enslave humanity just to name a few.

tldr, FF14 can get grim dark but it is a drop in the ocean when looking at what grim darkness trully is.

[KizuyaKatogami]

If being short lived is a disqualifying characteristic then I would argue that both of your examples combined are more short lived than the second half of Thavnir. Let alone the other darker parts of Stormblood, Shadowbringers and Endwalker, for example Yotsuyu's childhood and teenage abuse at the hands of her family before being married off and latter being forced into prostitution, Yotsuyu's rein of terror in Doma, including but not limited to making family members kill each other to prove their loyalty to her, Eulmore and eating the flesh of its own sin eaterified populace without knowing they were doing so (Soylent green), the WOL being corrupted into a monster by the light aether they absorbed with the intent of saving a world, the existential nihilism of all of the dead races in Endwalker, Endwalker bringing up the eventual heat death of the universe and the finite nature of all life, Fordola massacring her own troops to try and halt the alliance during the second half of Ala Migho, and Meteion's quest to permanently kill every living being in the universe just to name a few.

Of course if we look outside of FF then we can find franchises that are even more grim dark than those, Halo with a collection of genocidal fanatics trying to kill every last human and the flood, a terrifying body horror plague that corrupts all living beings in the universe and that was only stopped by first wiping out all life in the universe to stop its spread, and not to mention the grandfather of grim dark Warhammer 40K. It has the works, four gods determined to flood the universe in either blood, plagues, hedonism or treachery and mutation, a hive mind hell bent on consuming all life in the galaxy, mid controlling space communists, the orks whose only purpose in life is to fight anyone and everyone, plus countless species who only want to destroy or enslave humanity just to name a few.

tldr, FF14 can get grim dark but it is a drop in the ocean when looking at what grim darkness trully is.

I never said compared to other game series it’s nearly as dark as them. I was simply saying to say the series isn’t that dark or grim makes me think people haven’t actually played the other games in the series lol. You are correct about some of those examples, a few i had forgotten about. One i will say i kind of disagree with us the WoL turning into a sineater one, just because everyone knows from the get-go we aren’t going to turn. It’s why a lot of that threat felt a bit fake. Unfortunately it’s an mmo so we know we’re going to make it out fine. It’s why however the ticking time bomb on the scions was pretty well done.

[Kordarion]

I never said compared to other game series it’s nearly as dark as them. I was simply saying to say the series isn’t that dark or grim makes me think people haven’t actually played the other games in the series lol. You are correct about some of those examples, a few i had forgotten about. One i will say i kind of disagree with us the WoL turning into a sineater one, just because everyone knows from the get-go we aren’t going to turn. It’s why a lot of that threat felt a bit fake. Unfortunately it’s an mmo so we know we’re going to make it out fine. It’s why however the ticking time bomb on the scions was pretty well done.

Fair enough, I only have a basic understanding of the plots of other games in the series so I can't really speak on them when it comes to grim darkness but I think, at least, a game or property has to be incredibly dark to classify as grim dark rather than just regular old dark. Also the reason I brought up the WOL sineater thing is because even though it was evidently never going to be the status quo, same as Zenos' body stealing episode in Garlemald, the fact that the writers even dangled such an outcome in front of us in-game is pretty dark to begin with.

Edit: In hindsight I've realised FF14 can be pretty grim dark and that ultimately, for me what stops it becoming fully grim dark is that there are people, like the WOL, who fight for a better future and win, in the process enacting change for the better. Truly grim dark stories are unable to clamber there way out of that grim darkness while a story like FF14 can, see the peace with the beast races, peacefully ending the dragon song war, saving the first, averting multiple calamities, overthrowing the Garlean empire without replacing it with something equally as bad, convincing the Omicrons to find a better future for themselves or beating the literal avatar of despair.

[Fenral]

Not sure where you’re getting this from. The series has always typically been incredibly edgy and grim dark. FF6,7,8,10,13,type 0 just to name a few examples. Even 14 is pretty edgy and grim dark in the earlier expansions, it’s just that they stopped with it around stormblood sadly.

Somehow that list expertly missed almost all the ones that actually kill party members (you left out 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 12, 13-2, 15). I'd say 2 is probably the darkest the series ever got. You're missing out if you haven't played it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Somehow that list expertly missed almost all the ones that actually kill party members (you left out 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 12, 13-2, 15). I'd say 2 is probably the darkest the series ever got. You're missing out if you haven't played it.

I’ve played it. I don’t necessarily equate grim dark to killing off party members,depends how it’s done imo. But true there’s some pretty oof stuff in 2. I’ve played every game in the series outside of 11 I did say 13 in which i mean the 13 trilogy.In terms of darkest in the series i dont think anything holds a candle to Type-0. There's a reason it was the first rated M game in the series.

[Denishia]

Poor 2. Nobody remembers 2 and the mountain of dead guest player members (ok, Scott wasn't a party member until Dawn of Souls). Or that you're starting off -after an unwinnable fight- in a world that has been almost all been conquered and overrun with monsters from hell. Josep, Min-wu, Ricard... You get Leon as the OG Dark Knight brother-turned-evil then a last minute redemption joins party.
But to actually rec that game to someone? The amount of grinding that I did outside Kashun against goblins meant that FFII's battle theme was triggering me when it reappeared as the Hall of Novice music. Very much a love/hate relationship with everything from that game. Though it'd be nice if the next WHM AF gear was inspired by Min-wu.

[Fenral]

Just grind defense by smacking yourself in the face repeatedly. Duh.

[Denishia]

Just grind defense by smacking yourself in the face repeatedly. Duh.

those poor baffled goblins waiting for me to stopping hitting myself

[Cilia]

While Final Fantasy can (and often does) touch heavy subject matter, it has never been grimdark. There is always hope and a happy ending waiting for the protagonists, even if it takes a ton of effort and there's no guarantee said happy ending will last. Grimdark is typically given a "the world is shit, nothing you can do will improve it, just try to survive" feel.

... which I can't objectively speak to, but XIV has never felt that way. A Realm Reborn has being instrumental in saving Eorzea from Garlean conquest, later repelling primal threats while working with Alphinaud to build a non-political military force that can act freely. That goes south due to Teledji, but after that it's been nothing but up - we expose the lies behind and stop the perpetuation of the Dragonsong War, liberate Doma and Ala Mhigo from Imperial oppression, and drag the First back from the brink - saving the Source in the process. Endwalker sees it climax with us saving not just Etheriys but the universe not only from a premature heat death but from Meteion hoarding souls in Ultima Thule so new life outside Etheirys could instantiate once more.

That's not to say the story has no grim or dark moments, but tonally it's never gone there. Costs are paid but hope lives on.

[KizuyaKatogami]

While Final Fantasy can (and often does) touch heavy subject matter, it has never been grimdark. There is always hope and a happy ending waiting for the protagonists, even if it takes a ton of effort and there's no guarantee said happy ending will last. Grimdark is typically given a "the world is shit, nothing you can do will improve it, just try to survive" feel.

... which I can't objectively speak to, but XIV has never felt that way. A Realm Reborn has being instrumental in saving Eorzea from Garlean conquest, later repelling primal threats while working with Alphinaud to build a non-political military force that can act freely. That goes south due to Teledji, but after that it's been nothing but up - we expose the lies behind and stop the perpetuation of the Dragonsong War, liberate Doma and Ala Mhigo from Imperial oppression, and drag the First back from the brink - saving the Source in the process. Endwalker sees it climax with us saving not just Etheriys but the universe not only from a premature heat death but from Meteion hoarding souls in Ultima Thule so new life outside Etheirys could instantiate once more.

That's not to say the story has no grim or dark moments, but tonally it's never gone there. Costs are paid but hope lives on.

ff13-2 doesn’t have a very happy ending tbf. I disagree that the tone has never been dark. I definitely think it was there in ARR and HW. Yes while hope lives on, many don’t live to see that. That’s one of the harsh realities that used to be in the game. No one is safe, everyone is human. We see this fairly early on with ARR with the invasion of the waking sands. We see it with Edda as well. Peoples own stories cut short in horrible ways. Not to mention there’s a ton of the messed up things on the side, like Uldah zombifying an entire city state etc.