*Spoilers* The Past and After the Endwalker MSQ End

[EaraGrace]

Why are you so certain of that.

Because, if that were true, then Venat could have removed him from the Convocation. Which then begs the question, if that were true why wouldn’t she. She had all the reason to do so. The repeated statements that Hermes was invaluable and that he worked both to identify the cause and find a solution to the Final Days explains it perfectly. And why the prerequisite of a technical reason? We don’t need to know the details to trust the fact that if multiple people say he is necessary, then he is.

Hermes motives are one thing, it is his supposed sole authority that beggars belief...

First, the Convocation demonstrates how specialized researchers in Amaurot become given how they focus on different forms of life. Second, unlike with modern researchers, natural aptitude to different forms of Aetherial manipulation also impacts they’re ability to do research. We see this reflected in Emet, whose aptitude for seeing souls makes him predisposed to the seat and to be an expert on the Aetherial realm. Hermes demonstrates in our fight with him an exceedingly good use of wind aether, as well a deep passion for the subject. Him being a pioneer in those relatively unknown fields of study makes sense. Celestial aether currents and dynamis have no known applications until Hermes utilizes them. Even in our world an unexplainable, unusable phenomenon would have few dedicated research efforts, until someone makes it worth looking into. There’s no reason to believe that the information that Hermes imparts on us of the subjects is not a product of his own research.

It should not be surprising…

Without context I wouldn’t be able to tell if you’re referring to the WoL or Hermes here.

Because everything was already done…

Because as much as the consequences of their actions are horrifying, the reasons, the intent, was worthy of empathy. Hermes was emotional isolated, facing an existential crisis and the destruction of his last hope for life when we fought in Elpis. Meteion was a being created with the uncontrollable power to feel the emotions of others, and found herself in a void surrounded by the damned and despairing souls of the universe. Just like with Emet, I can say their actions are wrong, but I cannot hate them for it.

What exactly were they supposed to do when Venat was withholding the reasoning behind her position?

If you had the ability to tell if a person was lying, multiple people were just ruined by something to do with the computer and this person was a good friend, yeah I’d say I’d believe them.

We do not know to what degree they were influenced, if at all. The Loporrits and Emet in ShB would suggest very little.

We don’t disagree. I’m just saying it didn’t help.

[Veloran]

Emet spends half his screentime in ShB fawning over Zodiark. Sure he's not a happy little bundle of cackling craziness about it like Lahabrea, but he's clearly simping hard for old Zodi.

That and he outright describes himself as tempered IIRC. We've never known even the most lightly tempered go against their god.

Almost all of Emet's time in ShB is spent acting against Zodiark's best interests. If he was so intent only on serving Zodiark, he could have simply killed WoL (much easier said than done but far from impossible) and left it at that fairly early on. This is highlighted in Endwalker when past-Emet questions why he would ever willingly invite his own demise to his doorstep to defeat him, not knowing that future-Emet set it all up in an attempt to find another way than the rejoining plan.

Because, if that were true, then Venat could have removed him from the Convocation. Which then begs the question, if that were true why wouldn’t she. She had all the reason to do so. The repeated statements that Hermes was invaluable and that he worked both to identify the cause and find a solution to the Final Days explains it perfectly. And why the prerequisite of a technical reason? We don’t need to know the details to trust the fact that if multiple people say he is necessary, then he is.

Metatextually, Venat couldn't remove him because they were trying to set up a timeloop and if she had done so the game never would have happened. Hence we have a very vague and flimsy justification presented for why she couldn't. This is clearly not something we are intended to dwell on, because thinking about it too much undermines the narrative.

As to the "technical reason" point - From the outset it should be clear that if Venat didn't have some prerequisite technical knowledge that needed to be used that only Hermes had, then she obviously couldn't know about that knowledge to know that they would need it. This is why the writing leaves it in vagaries, because logically Venat could not possibly know that he was necessary beyond the fact that he was smart and a smart person could theoretically be useful. In other words, Venat risks billions of lives on a very spurious basis, which again we are not supposed to inspect.

First, the Convocation demonstrates how specialized researchers in Amaurot become given how they focus on different forms of life.

Yes, they are all quite specialized. Except for Hermes, who is a lone specialist in several unrelated yet plot-critical fields of study. For example they have experts in aquatic, terrestrial, and fungal/plant life - But no specialist in avian life?

Without context I wouldn’t be able to tell if you’re referring to the WoL or Hermes here.

The extremely questionable ethics and logistics in fact apply just as equally to WoL as to Hermes. Because as Vyrerus pointed out much better than I in another thread,

Because it's not mankind nor the concept of man that accepts, and is given the actual test; then passes it. It is one, idealized and idolized individual. An anointed chosen one birthed by the murder of original man. Prepared and groomed for the role, and given every tool past, present, and future to ensure success. If all of that is what's required to be worthy of life, then no basic concept for the worthiness of life exists.

I would argue that WoL's role in the narrative significantly undermines some of the presented themes as espoused by Venat, and the framing of her 12,000-year promise to WoL kind of makes it look like she destroyed her race and made countless billions of people suffer all for the sake of one person's existence.

Because as much as the consequences of their actions are horrifying, the reasons, the intent, was worthy of empathy. Hermes was emotional isolated, facing an existential crisis and the destruction of his last hope for life when we fought in Elpis. Meteion was a being created with the uncontrollable power to feel the emotions of others, and found herself in a void surrounded by the damned and despairing souls of the universe. Just like with Emet, I can say their actions are wrong, but I cannot hate them for it.

It's not so much they themselves I'm taking issue with here, rather it's the way the story is presenting them. For example in ShB Emet and Elidibus were framed as quite tragic figures, but their flaws and villainous elements are still clearly shown to the player, their wrongdoing was itself never in question even if the justness of their core cause was.

If you had the ability to tell if a person was lying, multiple people were just ruined by something to do with the computer and this person was a good friend, yeah I’d say I’d believe them.

If I could tell someone was lying I should think that would make me less inclined to believe them, not more.

[EaraGrace]

Almost all of Emet's time in ShB is spent acting against Zodiark's best interests...

Only at the very end, everything up to that point fell in line with the Zodiark plan. And if were going by what Emet says:

Emet: And like one of your primals, He tempered us. It was only natural. There is no resisting such power. And so we Ascians came to exist solely to bring about the rule of darkness. His darkness. Of course, some would call us "evil" for it... and they would be fools. Though that is only to be expected, given their innate ability to conceive of the nature of our universe.

Metatextually...

I just don't think it has the holes you believe it does.

As to the "technical reason" point...

You do not need an in-depth knowledge of a subject, to know you need an expert. I could know if someone near me needed immediate surgery, but also know that I am not capable of doing so. Does that mean I in fact have the requisite knowledge?

Not to mention the whole point of going to Elpis was to find Hermes. Mentioning him, and the role he would have, would be unavoidable in explaining our presence there. This is further proven when Venat mentions the stagnation of celestial currents when confronting Hermes, we told her of the role he played, and the contributions we knew of.

Yes, they are all quite specialized. Except for Hermes, who is a lone specialist in several unrelated yet plot-critical fields of study...

Yes, events involving one of his creations, a secret one that he told no one of, motivated and encouraged by circumstances he shares with no one else, makes him uniquely positioned to address things. This is true.

He is the one to figure out why the Final Days was different for us than it was for the Ancients, as well as the first to conclude that the source came from off-world based simply on his understanding of celestial aether and dynamis. Again the again the story says and shows he is important. I can't tell you how to feel about it, only that that is the case.

The extremely questionable ethics...

Knowing that things as they stand lead to our coming, and acting to ensure that outcome are two different things. She states she will not take for granted anything as she "walks her path," and she will strive to do her best. Because, as she states plainly, "We cannot know until the moment is at hand."

If I could tell someone was lying I should think that would make me less inclined to believe them, not more.

As far as I am aware, none, not Emet, not Elidibus, not the Ancients she pleaded with, not those who followed her, none accused her of being a liar. The closest was Emet saying Hydaelyn would undoubtedly have a differing view of events surrounding the Sundering. Not much.