What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Kozh]

You're not supposed to think Venat is evil or stupid, it's been one of your complaints if I recall correctly, and I doubt you're supposed to get the impression that Emet is lying to us here, or maybe missing some solution that he's just not thought of. When both those characters tell you their people couldn't have done better, and they know them far better than we do, then it's a safe bet that they really couldn't have done better.

Sorry that's not how criticizing story works. The writer can make every single npc to praise venat (as if they haven't already), but people are still allowed to think it's a bad decision she made. Especially when she intentionally deprived the Ancients a veeeeery crucial information. It's just bad writing imo.

It's like if we're reading a romance novel where the couple is clearly in abusive relationship, yet the writer said "see, they love each other and it's fine, they said so themselves". Are we supposed to believe that and cheer for their relationship? I think not.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Ok, maybe this is at the center of our differing views. I don't understand what you mean by both sides are equal. Therefore, I must currently reject the idea of that point having been driven home.

Also, any story implication does not necessitate the treatment of minions one way or another. If they want to make a minion of something, they can. If not, they can choose not to as well.

The devs themselves have stated that neither side is good or evil, so o find it strange that they would show some bias in regards to venat/hydaelyn and not apply the same to the other side aka Elidibus and Zodiark. It’s not so much the minions(that was just an example) as much as it is the overall writing. They gave us no dialogue choices to even mention Elidibus sacrificing himself for us or labeling Zodiark essentially as the being that was keeping us safe all this time. However, we are constantly told how benevolent venat is and how much she did for us and that’s shown even more via a minion we obtained from her. Where is all of this for the opposing side? It’s just very one-sided and kind of against what the devs have stated previously. If it really were 50/50 on both sides then both sides would receive the same treatment. I brought up the minion thing because to this day we still haven’t even gotten an ascian or zodiark themed minion. Yet they now give us a Venat one…

[linayar]

The devs themselves have stated that neither side is good or evil, so o find it strange that they would show some bias in regards to venat/hydaelyn and not apply the same to the other side aka Elidibus and Zodiark. It’s not so much the minions(that was just an example) as much as it is the overall writing. They gave us no dialogue choices to even mention Elidibus sacrificing himself for us or labeling Zodiark essentially as the being that was keeping us safe all this time. However, we are constantly told how benevolent venat is and how much she did for us and that’s shown even more via a minion we obtained from her. Where is all of this for the opposing side? It’s just very one-sided and kind of against what the devs have stated previously. If it really were 50/50 on both sides then both sides would receive the same treatment. I brought up the minion thing because to this day we still haven’t even gotten an ascian or zodiark themed minion. Yet they now give us a Venat one…

The Ascians might have understandable reasons for their actions, but from our perspective, that doesn't make them not bad when we fought them.

In the end, they ended up helping us after their defeat. Meanwhile, Venat was always on our side. So, no, they're not equal in that sense.

[Haru304]

Thought it was pretty good to be honest. Hit many similar beats to Shadowbringers.

Can't help but feel as if for a lot of people Shadowbringers was baby's first JRPG storyline and it looked all bright, new shiny and 'omg I've never seen these tropes before'. I mean, it was really good to see in an MMORPG storyline but it wasn't the best thing since sliced bread.

In some ways, I actually think Endwalker is a step up and I didn't think they could pull it off. It was entirely unpredictable and I feel like my expectations were subverted in a good way. It has all of the traditional FF ingredients to success - from war and horror to cute moon rabbits.

Not only did they wrap up the 'Ascian Saga' but they've even left open elements of it for further world building or elaboration; see pandaemonium, the 13th, remaining sundered ascians, etc. They dealt their hand without throwing away the whole deck.
I hated Zenos in Stormblood, partially because I feel as if the character writing was a little all over the place during that expansion. I quite like him here. He's more understandable and this was one of the best ways they could have tied up his story arc. It's made me retroactively appreciate him and brought some consistency to his character.

Some things I think they could've done 'objectively' better are -

- less skimping out on the voice acting.

- more exposition of the horrific final days, maybe kill off a few minor nps or show them as missing afterwards, make it more impactful. It kind of felt like a wet fart. I understand that's difficult to do though.
I don't really have anything else to add beyond that without venturing into spoiler territory.

Don't understand this whole 'omg y didn't they kill off a character' shit. I mean sure, yeah, if they could do it in a meaningful way then that'd be great. Expecting Thancred to never come back after blinking out is a bit silly though, same with what happened afterwards. When it 'kind of' happened with Minfillia, does nobody else remember how bizarre and jarring that was? Lol. You -really- have to make a character's death a bit more impactful and meaningful, with some foreshadowing sprinkled in.

I'd have personally killed off Urianger, because he had a very emotional arc this time around and I half-expected him to follow in Louisoix and Papalymo's footsteps. I could come up with a few ways to do that, especially in the final battle against Endsinger. But as Alisaie has said repeatedly 'no more heroic sacrifices'. They're often times extremely overdone and add nothing but 'oh that person died, wow that's edgy'. You can only pull so many of the same trick out of a hat before people get accustomed to it.

[Kozh]

But as Alisaie has said repeatedly 'no more heroic sacrifices'. They're often times extremely overdone and add nothing but 'oh that person died, wow that's edgy'. You can only pull so many of the same trick out of a hat before people get accustomed to it.

And it's also applied for opposite. There's only so many fake out death and plot armor to protect the protagonists before it gets tiring.

That aside... I actually can stand having the characters not dying, but what I can't stand is us, the WoL and the scions, to be always in the winning and righteous side, no matter what the situation was. We never been on the losing side, never been on the morally grey side, always been the bastion and pinnacle of morality, can come up with any solutions that doesn't require them to be the "villains". I wish for more uldah banquet type of situation, where we were on the defensive side. After HW, all we get at most is "being mildly inconvenient during the expansion and being victorious in the end anyway".

[Atelier-Bagur]

And it's also applied for opposite. There's only so many fake out death and plot armor to protect the protagonists before it gets tiring.

That aside... I actually can stand having the characters not dying, but what I can't stand is us, the WoL and the scions, to be always in the winning and righteous side, no matter what the situation was. We never been on the losing side, never been on the morally grey side, always been the bastion and pinnacle of morality, can come up with any solutions that doesn't require them to be the "villains". I wish for more uldah banquet type of situation, where we were on the defensive side. After HW, all we get at most is "being mildly inconvenient during the expansion and being victorious in the end anyway".

Yeah...who could forget how we totally "trounced" Zenos and the Empire when they first invaded Rhalgr's Reach in Stormblood. Or how the Eulmoran army were totally "running with their tails between their legs" during that first major battle in Lakeland.

It hasnt been all victories, the difference is that us and Scions are persistent enough to move forward and do better.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The Ascians might have understandable reasons for their actions, but from our perspective, that doesn't make them not bad when we fought them.

In the end, they ended up helping us after their defeat. Meanwhile, Venat was always on our side. So, no, they're not equal in that sense.

Doesn’t change the fact about Zodiark though, or Elidibus. I wouldn’t say Venat was always on our side technically either if we equate ourselves to original Azem, whom she had also essentially betrayed and sundered. It depends on the perspective, but even so, it’s strange that the devs themselves state what the stance is on these things but still play favorites it seems. I just wish there was equality for both sides and not favoritism heavily skewed to one side. Seems like it’s always the pretty feminine characters that get the sympathy and fanservice whereas the more demonic looking ones (zodiark) get the short end of the stick, hence my comment about their appearances.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Some things I think they could've done 'objectively' better are -

- less skimping out on the voice acting.

- more exposition of the horrific final days, maybe kill off a few minor nps or show them as missing afterwards, make it more impactful. It kind of felt like a wet fart. I understand that's difficult to do though.
I don't really have anything else to add beyond that without venturing into spoiler territory.

Don't understand this whole 'omg y didn't they kill off a character' shit. I mean sure, yeah, if they could do it in a meaningful way then that'd be great. Expecting Thancred to never come back after blinking out is a bit silly though, same with what happened afterwards. When it 'kind of' happened with Minfillia, does nobody else remember how bizarre and jarring that was? Lol. You -really- have to make a character's death a bit more impactful and meaningful, with some foreshadowing sprinkled in.

I'd have personally killed off Urianger, because he had a very emotional arc this time around and I half-expected him to follow in Louisoix and Papalymo's footsteps. I could come up with a few ways to do that, especially in the final battle against Endsinger. But as Alisaie has said repeatedly 'no more heroic sacrifices'. They're often times extremely overdone and add nothing but 'oh that person died, wow that's edgy'. You can only pull so many of the same trick out of a hat before people get accustomed to it.

--Think So? Maybe Im just no memorizing it correctly, but I felt like they did more Voice Acting this time around.
Plus we still have Post, so there might be even more Voice Acting.

--You mean like a Cutscene that shows the moment it happened and all the death and destruction unfold before our eyes?
Thinking about it, it might have been an interesting Spectacle similar to the Great ARR Opening/1.0 Ending. But part of me feels like...idk we dont really need to see the destruction. Or if they were gonna do it, they should have done it back in Shadowbringers. I think it would have made more sense then.

--The whole Killing off a Character thing for some people I think; wither they'll admit it or not, is just a weird thrill for them. I think calling it a Kink might be going to far. Some people just like Death and find it exciting.
Without Purpose and Meaning, I think its just silly and cheap. Nobody needs to die, and it wouldn't make the story any more interesting, unless there is a reason. You don't just kill off a character just to be edgy. You kill them off if they serve their purpose, or if there is a Purpose to the Death; like a Motivation, or a Redemption arc.
Like if anybody was actually going to Die, I thought it would be Alphi. That stupid good Trailer really made me think that was it for him. And I personally think it might have been a good exit for him.

[Haru304]

And it's also applied for opposite. There's only so many fake out death and plot armor to protect the protagonists before it gets tiring.

That aside... I actually can stand having the characters not dying, but what I can't stand is us, the WoL and the scions, to be always in the winning and righteous side, no matter what the situation was. We never been on the losing side, never been on the morally grey side, always been the bastion and pinnacle of morality, can come up with any solutions that doesn't require them to be the "villains". I wish for more uldah banquet type of situation, where we were on the defensive side. After HW, all we get at most is "being mildly inconvenient during the expansion and being victorious in the end anyway".

In regards to the Scions and where plot armor is concerned that's probably because there's still stories to be told concerning them as individuals later down the line. FF and JRPGs especially aren't particularly great when it comes to moral ambiguity on the 'whole', there are some exceptions but for the FF series in-particular, any moral greyness is usually on the part of the opposing side while the heroes are always morally righteous. I imagine it's even harder to create a storyline like that for FFXIV because they're limited by the medium of an MMORPG.

What I will say is that in regards to FFXIV, there's a lot of times when the pressure is on and our actions have world or country spanning consequences, which keeps things rather amusing. A big part of Endwalker was fighting against despair itself, rather than just pitting hero against villain. The mental scars will probably sting many of the Scions for quite a while, if not our own character.

Since the story is moving away from the Scions now, we might be introduced to a more motley crew of more morally nuanced characters but given what I said before, especially where Square Enix is concerned, I don't think we're going to get it but then again, I don't really think morality is one of the core themes they've been going with and the ending to Endwalker really hit that home.

[Jandor]

Yeah, kinda hard to when they didn't even know about Meteion, cause someone didn't bother telling them...

He knows about Meteion when he says that.

Sorry that's not how criticizing story works. The writer can make every single npc to praise venat (as if they haven't already), but people are still allowed to think it's a bad decision she made. Especially when she intentionally deprived the Ancients a veeeeery crucial information. It's just bad writing imo.

'I think the story does a terrible job of explaining why Venat didn't go the Convocation' is criticizing the story.

'If Venat had told the Convocation about Meteion, then they'd have all come up with a solution together and saved the Unsundered world' is essentially fan-fiction.