I thought people might be exaggerating about SMN

[IdowhatIwant]

We are a month into the expansion now. It is time to get over it.

[mathias-merodach]

Since the job is considered dead yourself and some others, what are you playing now that fills the SMN void, if anything? Just curious to see what some might move to if they feel the same way.

Finally, lvling BLM on my main and then experience is, for me, just as it was on when trying it out on an alt where I got it to 70: boring and unengaging. And RDM, which I have at 77, is the same.

[Hanayumi]

They definitely simplified things a tad too much, noth smn and mnk got decent reworks but there is for sure the feeling of something missing...

[Imoen]

It was a bad experience. Players wanted Summoner - not DoT Mage. They got it and Summoner is much better off as it is now than how it was. The changes also open up a ton of expansion opportunities that the old Summoner kit wouldn't have allowed.

"It was bad". What was bad? It didn't summon things? First off, it did, as I already said. Also I already agreed thematically speaking, it is headed in the right direction now. So really don't know what you are going on about. The dots? Just some spells that tick over time.

The changes open up opportunities for what? More summons? more interaction between abilities in game play? The fact of the matter is you have no idea what it will become. I'm basing my opinion of the game play (which has no room for personal player growth) as it is right now, in this moment. Not what it could be in the future in some magical happy place that may or may not happen. When and if they expand or change it to be something more, then we can talk about this opportunity you speak of.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Personally, Im fine with the reworked Summoner. Its fun to have a magic casting class thats very fast and mobile which is appreciated during mechanic heavy bosses where you wish you can continue your flow of dps.

However I do acknowledge people's complaints that its not "varied" enough for it to be interesting in the long run.

The way I would have it, is to incorporate elements from FFIII's Summoner where each summon had a "black magic" and "white magic" spell effect when summoned. Perhaps this is where the job gauge would be better implemented. For example during summoning phase instead of spamming the same attack button, you have a choice of either using the summon's single and AoE target "black magic" spells OR use a white magic spell that would apply small heals or buffs to the party.

After the set of uses is done then you can unleash that summon's primary skill depending on the amount of black magic and white magic spells you used (kinda like black and white mana on red mage but without the need to balance it). Example you can unleash Ifrit's usual Hellfire skill or if you focused on support, use its Healing Light skill that applies a heal to the party (using skill terminology from FFIII)

Granted this is very similar to Red Mage and perhaps needs a lot of balancing if this style of play would be applied but at least it alleviates the issue of non-variety with your summons that people arent very fond of.

[zcrash970]

Your interpretation of gameplay is purely opinion based and a minority in this instance due to far more playing Summoner now than they did in Shadowbringers. If they didn't enjoy it then they wouldn't be queueing as Summoner still. The newness coat of paint has worn off already yet they stay as Summoner.

Hold on to that thought
Just because people are playing it now does not mean they will continue playing it. MCH saw the same surge and then experience a decline in player base in 5.x
This is essentially a new job so once the honeymoon phrase is over we will see how the entire player base will see it.

And you're right. It is opinion. Like it's my opinion that this design in gameplay is bland, uncreative and unengaging....however it is fact that it is lot easier to play, you are spamming one button more and aetherflow is even more disengaged with it's gameplay elements and have far less abilities than ever before

People love to bring that this SMN is good base to build upon or a good foundation, but we're talking about a LV90 job that feels like it's at base level.
Also, we have other two new jobs (Sage and Reaper) at their foundational levels that have far well designed kit in terms of complexity and gets better as you level up, while SMN stays practically the same from LV60 to LV90.

Fun fact is that they probably could have implemented all the shiny and flashy summons and their skills in the old SMN structure by getting rid of Bio, Miasma and the Pet skills. But hey, guess DELETING the old SMN and replacing it with a Braindead Mage was more easy.

That's what I hate most about the new smn crowd. They are talking like this job is going to be build upon. The shocker is going to be real is when 7.0 rolls around and this version of smn is going to get nothing like drk, mch, and the healers did this time around.

The current rotation is locked between 2 heavy CDs, bahamut/phoenix, that you need to use one-time and gemshine spam is literally most of the filler so adding more spells isn't possible. Give us ruin5 that will never use lol

The way I see this rework is that they gave up on making summoner unique so they made it into something generic because they just couldn't. All the same problems are still there either worse, ie ghosting, or the same issues. The one thing they did fix was bahamut/phoenix staying still

We are a month into the expansion now. It is time to get over it.

Funny how things repeat....

That what people said about brd/mch in 3.0
Ast changes
War in 2.0
Nin mundras ogcds


So if people are unhappy they need to complain and SE needs to hear their complaints

[aveyond-dreams]

That's what hate about the new smn crowd. They are talking like this job is going to be build upon. The shocker is going to be real is when 7.0 rolls around and this version of smn is going to get nothing like drk, mch, and the healers did this time around.

Maybe just maybe it would be a healthier idea to look at things in a more positive light rather than all doom and gloom. DRK may be in an unfortunate state but MCH is still fun and healers just got Sage and if things go well with that job then perhaps we'll see further improvements in the other healers as a result.

As for Summoner, despite the utter failings of pre-6.0 SMN they did manage to add in a new summon in Stormblood and Shadowbringers, with Endwalker revisiting the older egis and giving them new life as one-off full summons. Now that the job has something that it barely had for the past 8 years, a clear identity, the logical processes of deciding what to add to it becomes much easier.

What have people been asking for? More summons besides the original ones we got. Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva, and Alexander are all names people throw around frequently. These could come as ogcds to weave in, added gem summons post-Phoenix, and so on. They could add additional abilities to use during gem summons like Blood Pact: Ward or Blood Pact: Rage from FFXI, for all sorts of effects similar to the ideas above that draw from the White/Black Magic effects Summons had for FFIII.

In any case, I see no reason to lose hope in Summoner and I hope those other classes get revisited at some point as well. In the worst case scenario I'd just switch mains to something else if something seriously goes wrong, but for now Summoner is my go to for pretty much everything.

[zcrash970]

Maybe just maybe it would be a healthier idea to look at things in a more positive light rather than all doom and gloom. DRK may be in an unfortunate state but MCH is still fun and healers just got Sage and if things go well with that job then perhaps we'll see further improvements in the other healers as a result.

As for Summoner, despite the utter failings of pre-6.0 SMN they did manage to add in a new summon in Stormblood and Shadowbringers, with Endwalker revisiting the older egis and giving them new life as one-off full summons. Now that the job has something that it barely had for the past 8 years, a clear identity, the logical processes of deciding what to add to it becomes much easier.

What have people been asking for? More summons besides the original ones we got. Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva, and Alexander are all names people throw around frequently. These could come as ogcds to weave in, added gem summons post-Phoenix, and so on. They could add additional abilities to use during gem summons like Blood Pact: Ward or Blood Pact: Rage from FFXI, for all sorts of effects similar to the ideas above that draw from the White/Black Magic effects Summons had for FFIII.

In any case, I see no reason to lose hope in Summoner and I hope those other classes get revisited at some point as well. In the worst case scenario I'd just switch mains to something else if something seriously goes wrong, but for now Summoner is my go to for pretty much everything.

Wow.....you're still talking. Have you written anything worth reading yet? Looks like the answer is still no

You act like SE has a trend to revisit and add more to a job, but over the last two expansions, they have taken away more than adding to it. Ninjas unique utility and healer DPS comes immediately come to mind.
Remember they were more than ready to remove bard song buffs in 5.0 until people started complaining about it.

Like if I had reasons to be optimistic I would be but yoshi and his team doesn't deserve it

[Flatopia]

Fun fact is that they probably could have implemented all the shiny and flashy summons and their skills in the old SMN structure by getting rid of Bio, Miasma and the Pet skills. But hey, guess DELETING the old SMN and replacing it with a Braindead Mage was more easy.

You say that like that the old way of shoehorning in entire new phases each expac without fixing the horrific issues that plagued the job since it released is better.
"Maybe DWT will make it less spammy. At least, ya know, as spammy but faster."
"See, Demi-Bahamut! It's like a summoner now, sometimes. Yeah, I mean, sure it's AI is just as bad Egis, breaks harder with ping, and is even more important for your DPS so it feels awful when it does break."
"Look! Phoenix! Now we tried to make it faso proof by giving you a combo in hopes that minor mistakes/dogshit AI/bad connections won't doom your damage like it does for bahamut. Huh? Fix Bahamut? Add DWT to the Demi-Bahamut? Pssh."

Also lmfao "braindead mage" when people called summoner 'ruin mage' for a very good reason for it's entire life. Summoner wasn't hard, or extremely deep. It was just annoying for the vast majority of players.

[aveyond-dreams]

You know, at this point in time there are 2 choices: engage with the current state of affairs in a mature and healthy manner, or continue to run in circles lamenting job design that was soundly rejected by the majority. By this point in Shadowbringers? I had already hopped off Summoner and was exploring my options after I found the experience unsatisfactory.