[ENDWALKER MSQ SPOILERS] Timeline weirdness

[RyuDragnier]

My point is that the Elpis time loop is conditional to us being able to get there with the Crystal tower on the First. Which we shouldnt be able to do without G'rahas initial time jump. His timeline is wholly separate from ours, so how did it work back there? It could just be "coincidentally the same results but with different actions leading to it" but its an unsatisfying answer.

Sadly, time flow in this game is a VERY confusing thing, and I believe only Alexander knows how everything works. Though somebody had a theory that may explain it...the Exarch's time jump wasn't just through time, but also space/dimension.

If you assume the timeline follows the rule of "You went back in time because you were supposed to in order to cause these events to happen", then we have a lot of stable time loops, nothing contradicting itself. With the exception of the Exarch, every other time travel method has followed this. Summoners of Alex go back and time and give birth to the tribe that eventually leads to his summoning, us going back in time to save ourselves from the laser attack in Alex raids, us traveling to Elpis which sets in motion the events that lead to the Final Days and the Sundering, etc. The Exarch...doesn't match that pattern, and only makes sense if it's a dimension hop, meaning something outside of the normal rules of time travel. Due to how the time flows, him being here is a paradox...which is accepted by the timeline adjusting to him helping cause the events that lead to us going back in time to Elpis.

Again, really confusing as hell overall, and only Alex could tell us how time really works.

[AlysanneVrannai]

snippy snip

I feel like we are talking past eachother. I have acknowledged that there are different kinds of time travel, thats not the point of confusion to me.

Let me establish two names for simplicity:

"Timeline G" is the original timeline G'raha came from, where the Black Rose killed most of the population on the Source.

"Timeline S" is the timeline that we experience from ARR to Endwalker and onwards.

How does Timeline G even end up at the point it is, with a version of us having died to Black Rose, when the Final Days shouldnt have ended in a sundering since we were NOT summoned to the First by a G'raha from a different timeline, thus Elidibus and the Crystal Tower couldnt intertwine to send the Warrior of Light to Elpis to inform Hydaelyn about the coming crisis, so that her faction could prepare? "Coincidental Similarities" is an answer of course, although underwhelming.

[Kordarion]

I feel like we are talking past eachother. I have acknowledged that there are different kinds of time travel, thats not the point of confusion to me.

Let me establish two names for simplicity:

"Timeline G" is the original timeline G'raha came from, where the Black Rose killed most of the population on the Source.

"Timeline S" is the timeline that we experience from ARR to Endwalker and onwards.

How does Timeline G even end up at the point it is, with a version of us having died to Black Rose, when the Final Days shouldnt have ended in a sundering since we were NOT summoned to the First by a G'raha from a different timeline, thus Elidibus and the Crystal Tower couldnt intertwine to send the Warrior of Light to Elpis to inform Hydaelyn about the coming crisis, so that her faction could prepare? "Coincidental Similarities" is an answer of course, although underwhelming.

I have a theory that up until the Warriors of Darkness return to the first in Heavensward that they are still the same timeline and only diverge afterwards. Our current timeline splits from the 8UC timeline the moment that G'raha arrives in the first post-flood of light as that is the first point in time where the events of the two timelines differ. Therefore if both timelines are whole pre-Heavensward patches then they would both share the same set of events in Elpis and the Sundering, the events we set in motion by time-traveling to Elpis therefore creating a convoluted situation where the 8UC was fated to happen so that the sundering could happen.

Its confusing I know, but that's what happens when you introduce the ability to change the past/future like they did in Shadowbringers.

[RyuDragnier]

I feel like we are talking past eachother. I have acknowledged that there are different kinds of time travel, thats not the point of confusion to me.

Let me establish two names for simplicity:

"Timeline G" is the original timeline G'raha came from, where the Black Rose killed most of the population on the Source.

"Timeline S" is the timeline that we experience from ARR to Endwalker and onwards.

How does Timeline G even end up at the point it is, with a version of us having died to Black Rose, when the Final Days shouldnt have ended in a sundering since we were NOT summoned to the First by a G'raha from a different timeline, thus Elidibus and the Crystal Tower couldnt intertwine to send the Warrior of Light to Elpis to inform Hydaelyn about the coming crisis, so that her faction could prepare? "Coincidental Similarities" is an answer of course, although underwhelming.

That I'm really unsure of, unless Alexander set it up. I know, Alexander is a convenient excuse to explain things...but sadly he's also the ONLY being in creation (that we know so far) that actually knows how the hell time works.

[Katie_Kitty]

I feel like we are talking past eachother. I have acknowledged that there are different kinds of time travel, thats not the point of confusion to me.

Let me establish two names for simplicity:

"Timeline G" is the original timeline G'raha came from, where the Black Rose killed most of the population on the Source.

"Timeline S" is the timeline that we experience from ARR to Endwalker and onwards.

How does Timeline G even end up at the point it is, with a version of us having died to Black Rose, when the Final Days shouldnt have ended in a sundering since we were NOT summoned to the First by a G'raha from a different timeline, thus Elidibus and the Crystal Tower couldnt intertwine to send the Warrior of Light to Elpis to inform Hydaelyn about the coming crisis, so that her faction could prepare? "Coincidental Similarities" is an answer of course, although underwhelming.

I don't know why you're assuming no sundering would happen without us going to elpis. There's no reason to assume that.

[AlysanneVrannai]

I don't know why you're assuming no sundering would happen without us going to elpis. There's no reason to assume that.

Perhaps its unfounded to say one definitely wouldnt happen, but its not an out of nowhere assumption to make. Venat prepares her faction and Hydaelyns summoning from the moment you leave Elpis behind, I find it strange for a coincidental set of circumstances to intersect to create the exact same outcome without the major instigating factor. Basically, I think it is highly unlikely that the sundering by Venat becoming Hydaelyn could happen without the time-loop.

[Alleluia]

Perhaps its unfounded to say one definitely wouldnt happen, but its not an out of nowhere assumption to make. Venat prepares her faction and Hydaelyns summoning from the moment you leave Elpis behind, I find it strange for a coincidental set of circumstances to intersect to create the exact same outcome without the major instigating factor. Basically, I think it is highly unlikely that the sundering by Venat becoming Hydaelyn could happen without the time-loop.

Maybe its not a loop? Hear me out.

Many people have noted the inconsistency with the cutscene showing Venat sunder the ancients vs what we're shown happened in Anem. Anyder's record crystals. People have explained it away as metaphor, but what if we actually did diverge the timelines? And what we saw in AA is what happened in our timeline (and the 8th umbral), but what we saw in the cutscene is what happened in that second timeline where we warned Venat? She summons Hydaelyn in both, b/c that's the logical course of action she ultimately comes to regardless, but the events are different depending on our presence or lack of it.



Either way, I don't see why Venat wouldn't have thought of or executed the Hydaelyn plan without foreknowledge of events. Its just the summoning of a primal. The Convocation thought up and summoned Zodiark without foreknowledge (that we know of), and that was while the world was falling down around their ears. Venat and her group, at least in the AA telling of events, came up with Hydaelyn either: in the same timeframe, or in the grace period after Zodiark had stabilized everything. Probably the latter, cus the only reason they invent Hydaelyn in the first place is in response to the proposal to kill new life to rez the Ancients, which was of course the last phase of the plan. Its more than possible they could come up with their own summon in that timeframe. It doesn't require forewarning from the future.

[Vflower]

Many people have noted the inconsistency with the cutscene showing Venat sunder the ancients vs what we're shown happened in Anem. Anyder's record crystals. People have explained it away as metaphor, but what if we actually did diverge the timelines?

Good point, I think the discrepancy can't be ignored. We basically have two version of events:

Everything we heard in Shadowbringers: Final Days happen, people sacrifice themselves to summon the primal Zodiark, more people are sacrificed to restore the world, some people have had enough, creating a divide between the ancients that even made Elidibus leave Zodiark to try and help mediate, eventually those rebels summon the primal Hydaelyn to bind Zodiark and Hydaelyn sunders everything.
What we saw in Endwalker: Venat knows exactly what is going to happen and while people are in the middle of summoning Zodiark (monsters are still being summoned at the same time as Venat does her thing, and Hythlodaeus, who was one of the sacrificed souls, is still alive), Venat shows up and sunders everything. We don't know how she got that power or how she turned into Hydaelyn or what happened to Zodiark and Elidibus.

These two versions of events are irreconcilable. Clearly the Shadowbringers version has to have happened in our timeline, since it has been corroborated by two people who lived through it as well as historical records, while the Endwalker version cannot be dismissed as a metaphor, since we saw it while traversing time and space. Why would the river of time show us a vague metaphor? It would obviously show us what actually happened.

The only possible conclusion is that we created a separate timeline with our actions in Elpis. We saw that timeline's sundering, not our own timeline's sundering.
Unfortunately that also creates some problems: Emet-Selch makes a reference to 'remember us' which can only have happened when we defeated him in our timeline, but at the same time he admits that he had 'forgotten' which is something that happened in the timeline we created in Elpis.
Similarly, Hydaelyn knows us from Elpis in our timeline while talking to us in our own timeline, which doesn't make any sense.


I don't see how there can be any explanation for this other than 'plot hole', which I guess, is what the whole 'oh yeah by the way our two timelines are kind of merging somehow' explanation in the game is supposed to cover.

[Impulsikk]

Sadly, time flow in this game is a VERY confusing thing, and I believe only Alexander knows how everything works. Though somebody had a theory that may explain it...the Exarch's time jump wasn't just through time, but also space/dimension.

If you assume the timeline follows the rule of "You went back in time because you were supposed to in order to cause these events to happen", then we have a lot of stable time loops, nothing contradicting itself. With the exception of the Exarch, every other time travel method has followed this. Summoners of Alex go back and time and give birth to the tribe that eventually leads to his summoning, us going back in time to save ourselves from the laser attack in Alex raids, us traveling to Elpis which sets in motion the events that lead to the Final Days and the Sundering, etc. The Exarch...doesn't match that pattern, and only makes sense if it's a dimension hop, meaning something outside of the normal rules of time travel. Due to how the time flows, him being here is a paradox...which is accepted by the timeline adjusting to him helping cause the events that lead to us going back in time to Elpis.

Again, really confusing as hell overall, and only Alex could tell us how time really works.

Then that means everything has been preordained and there is no free will.

[RyuDragnier]

Then that means everything has been preordained and there is no free will.

No, only certain events are preordained, and those that involve the important individuals you need. Everybody else's lives are not and are in a way, collateral. Example, Final Days in Thavnair, it was supposed to happen, was going to happen. What villagers changed and fell to despair did not matter, just that the event happened at all.