So, anyone feel like this should have been a bigger deal...? (SPOILERS!!!)

[KageTokage]

There's implications that there may be more to the moon then what was initially stated about it...most tellingly the fact that you can see it in Elpis during Umbral Winds from between 8 PM to 12 AM ET despite that contradicting the fact that it shouldn't even exist yet.

[SamsaraTrickstar]

I liked it. They made a big hairy deal about the moon and then subverted all expectations. Definitely took me back to old classic Final Fantasy games.

This subverted expectations are the problem 9f modern story telling. We subvert it and the logic be damned. That's how we got got season 8. The last 3 start wars and some more less impactful 5hings. A good story is something like made in abyss. You expect something bad buy it hit you like a truck any ways.a bad story is when you expect something bad but it's never happened.

[myahele]

subverted all expectations

This is true

[kaynide]

I don't know what the devs were originally planning, but it feels like this was originally meant to be two different expansions crammed into one.

My main disappointment was how easy it was to actually get to the moon, and how weird it got post Zodiark. I expected a large amount of the expansion to revolve around "oh my god, they've teleported to the moon to finish the job, how the crap do we get there".

I had fully expected we would be going there crash landing and guns blazing with Zodiark being maybe in the 87ish area. For as important as the moon was made out to be, I expected we would be descending into the moon itself to deal with some kind of Ascian system...

Like, we know that the Allagans took in a bunch of dragons to make Dalamud constantly summon Bahamut right? I was expected something horrific like the Ancients taking their own people and using them to constantly reform Zodiark so he wouldn't be dead-dead 'til we destroyed that.

Not saying my idea would be better..who knows.. maybe they felt it was too much a slog..or too much pressure/discomfort on players to not get us to the moon ASAP.

Again, didn't hate it, and the parts it did well, were really well done...but we absolutely jumped the shark with Elpis and Ultima Thule.

[Quintessa]

Yeah ngl I feel like the moon is very underwhelming. And zodiark too. Ever since the reveal about elidibus being zodiark heart, I already knew zodiark would be more of a plot device, but to make him a lvl 83 trial is just.... Idk, feels anticlimactic. And the scions doesn't even have any reaction to it.

Oh yes sir, I was not happy that Zodiark was turned into "Fandiark". I was like COME ONE DEV TEAM, THIS THE ALMIGHTY GOD ZODIARK THAT HYDAELYN COULDNT COMPLETELY DESTROY AND YOU REDUCE HIM TO BEING A PLAY THING FOR AN ARR BOSS THAT WANTS TO COMMIT MURDER SUICIDE.

[Ilenya]

Oh yes sir, I was not happy that Zodiark was turned into "Fandiark". I was like COME ONE DEV TEAM, THIS THE ALMIGHTY GOD ZODIARK THAT HYDAELYN COULDNT COMPLETELY DESTROY AND YOU REDUCE HIM TO BEING A PLAY THING FOR AN ARR BOSS THAT WANTS TO COMMIT MURDER SUICIDE.

Hydaelyn didn't want to kill Zodiark? Why would you make that comment?

[linayar]

I know they were described as the "hearts" of the primals since Shadowbringers, but we never really learned what that meant – my impression was that it was more of a core for the primal to form around, maybe influencing its personality, but not simply being the same person now in control of a more powerful form.

I suppose our closest reference is incarnate summoning, where a single person draws the primal's power into themselves, but a heart seems like it would be the opposite: being the core on which the power called forth by all the summoners together would coalesce and become something vastly greater than a single human mind.

And if Elidibus is to Zodiark as Venat is to Hydaelyn, the very mind and personality of the primal but set free to wander, the story has never treated him as such. Even once it was revealed that he was a primal, an essence drawn out of Zodiark, he was treated as something separate and not (at least with enough emphasis) the key functional part of Zodiark himself. For all we knew at the time, what was called forth might not have even been the real Elidibus but a copy produced by the wishful thinking of his friends while the real soul remained within Zodiark.

What do you mean? Elidibus was something separate because he separated himself from Zodiark. In that way, Zodiark was more like a husk. The fact that Elidibus still existed as himself instead of being completely consumed by Zodiark hints at this.

[Iscah]

What do you mean? Elidibus was something separate because he separated himself from Zodiark. In that way, Zodiark was more like a husk. The fact that Elidibus still existed as himself instead of being completely consumed by Zodiark hints at this.

That is essentially my point. The full existence of a godlike primal's personality should not be "one pre-existing person and a husk".

Previously we were told that Elidibus was able to leave Zodiark, but not the effect on Zodiark, and reducing him to being basically useless is bizarre. (And how were they doing the third round of sacrifices while Zodiark was in useless mode and Elidibus was separate?)

It also makes Elidibus's relationship with the other Ascians even weirder. They keep going on about their one true god, but Elidibus is just there as a slightly annoying colleague.

Also, Elidibus's continued "existence as himself" only hints at Zodiark being a husk if you already believe that the heart directly persists as the personality of the primal. If the heart simply provides the base for a primal mind comprised of many souls, then that heart might be able to be removed from the primal after – and even if that does render the primal dormant, the one person acting as heart could just be a key "cog in the machine" rather than the entire engine.

And also, as I said in my previous post, it's not inconceivable (within the knowledge we held pre-EW) that Elidibus never actually separated from Zodiark at all. Rather, suppose if those arguing groups were all thinking of Elidibus and how he would resolve their argument, they might subconsciously summon (or create) a new primal in the form of Elidibus who is actually not the soul still inside the primal. Or perhaps Zodiark deliberately created him as a copy.


Also, to go back to an earlier statement...

considering the nature of even regular primals being influenced by the desires of their summoners

This is where my line of thinking is coming from. A normal primal is "influenced by the desires of their creator" but does not require any one of its summoners to act as a heart. But a much larger, planet-scale primal might need a heart because of its size, in which case the desires of the heart infuse the desires of the primal as a whole – but that still doesn't indicate that the heart becomes the primal as a hypercharged version of themself. If a small "heartless" primal develops its own mind independent of its summoners, why shouldn't a larger primal be the same?

The personality of the heart might form a strong influence on the primal, but that doesn't have to mean directly becoming them.

It's also a matter of the language they use. The Ascians created Zodiark. They did not turn Elidibus into Zodiark.

[Haruka_R]

But let's be honest, did anyone have a chuckle or confused reaction when we got asked to protect the last pillar and right a minute or less it got destroyed by Zenos with 0 suspense?

Lol I did. That was the dumbest shit ever. Stupid writing not letting me even make an attempt to defend the pillar.

[linayar]

That is essentially my point. The full existence of a godlike primal's personality should not be "one pre-existing person and a husk".

Why not? This only reinforces how much "greater" the unsundered people were compared to the sundered.

Previously we were told that Elidibus was able to leave Zodiark, but not the effect on Zodiark, and reducing him to being basically useless is bizarre. (And how were they doing the third round of sacrifices while Zodiark was in useless mode and Elidibus was separate?)

Again, why is it bizarre? If we weren't told anything beforehand, there wasn't anything to reduce.

It also makes Elidibus's relationship with the other Ascians even weirder. They keep going on about their one true god, but Elidibus is just there as a slightly annoying colleague.

That's just the effect of the tempering. They're tempered to Zodiark, not Elidibus as a separate entity from Zodiark.

Also, Elidibus's continued "existence as himself" only hints at Zodiark being a husk if you already believe that the heart directly persists as the personality of the primal. If the heart simply provides the base for a primal mind comprised of many souls, then that heart might be able to be removed from the primal after – and even if that does render the primal dormant, the one person acting as heart could just be a key "cog in the machine" rather than the entire engine.

It's a hint in hindsight. There was no explanation of what the heart is in Shadowbringers and it was clarified in Endwalker.

And also, as I said in my previous post, it's not inconceivable (within the knowledge we held pre-EW) that Elidibus never actually separated from Zodiark at all. Rather, suppose if those arguing groups were all thinking of Elidibus and how he would resolve their argument, they might subconsciously summon (or create) a new primal in the form of Elidibus who is actually not the soul still inside the primal. Or perhaps Zodiark deliberately created him as a copy.

Well, Elidibus said he made the decision to separate himself from Zodiark (unless my memory fails me) in order to help the Ascians. That would imply this is the real Elidibus.

Also, to go back to an earlier statement...



This is where my line of thinking is coming from. A normal primal is "influenced by the desires of their creator" but does not require any one of its summoners to act as a heart. But a much larger, planet-scale primal might need a heart because of its size, in which case the desires of the heart infuse the desires of the primal as a whole – but that still doesn't indicate that the heart becomes the primal as a hypercharged version of themself. If a small "heartless" primal develops its own mind independent of its summoners, why shouldn't a larger primal be the same?

The personality of the heart might form a strong influence on the primal, but that doesn't have to mean directly becoming them.

Well, the thing is, Hydaelyn and Zodiark are definitely made differently and work differently. On a side note, I don't think either of them is "planet-sized," just on that level of power compared to normal primals.

It's also a matter of the language they use. The Ascians created Zodiark. They did not turn Elidibus into Zodiark.

Indeed, they created Zodiark and made Elidibus its heart. That's why Elidibus can still be differentiated from Zodiark, but as the heart, we only know in Endwalker what that means given the circumstances of both Hydaelyn and Zodiark.