I thought people might be exaggerating about SMN

[Floortank]

Off course it’s popular it’s the third new class introduced in ew the other 2 new classes are popular also so what’s your point ?

Their point is that it's not dead if it's popular.

How can a Job that's being played by a lot of people also be a dead Job, a Job that nobody plays?

[kejakalope]

Personally, I do think it's too simple now, but on the other hand it works with nearly zero jank (shields should be available whenever IMO) which is more than old SMN can say.

I think its a good foundation. Personally, I think next expac should add shiva, ramuh, and leviathan as the summons post pheonix. And they should go wild with both the post summon attacks. Make them each do completely different things.

Despite being a Final Fantasy icon, I don't think we're going to get Shiva, since she's like... an actual person, based on another actual person, and also was our now-dead friend. Calling out an imitation of the ghost of your dead buddy as part of your damage rotation would feel a bit ghoulish.

[Vegituh]

The main issue was that the previous version of Summoner was so complex that it was completely unapproachable to a good number of players, myself included.

New SMN may be simple but everyone can understand and play it, and I think that was the goal.

Personally, I think it's fun and interesting but I can see why people are upset.

Hopefully they build upon this new foundation and it regains some of the complexity it had before eventually.

Completely unapproachable? What are you even talking about. None of the classes in this game are no where near that hard, SHB SMN included, outside of like the top 1% of parses. The only version of the class that was actually a little bit "unapproachable" was SB SMN during Bahamuts burst phase because some peoples hands couldn't do it.

And if you thought it was "unapproachable" then you should of found something else to play instead of wanting them to dumb down this class. Thanks for ruining the class because you couldn't understand a 120s rotation.

[kejakalope]

I want the silly phoenix excog replaced with an actual cool flashy dmg skill and some potency buffs so it is above RDM where it should be and the job is pretty perfect for me. I love the new summons and am interested to see what they add in the next expansion for it.

I suspect it's going to stay at the bottom of the caster DPS charts since it has by far the most mobility, almost unlimited mobility really. For the ranged jobs, damage potential seems to be inversely proportional to freedom of movement.

[Vahlnir]

Despite being a Final Fantasy icon, I don't think we're going to get Shiva, since she's like... an actual person, based on another actual person, and also was our now-dead friend. Calling out an imitation of the ghost of your dead buddy as part of your damage rotation would feel a bit ghoulish.

I mean, a similiar logic could be applied to Phoenix. lol Yet we still have that one.

[Floortank]

I heard almost exactly this for over a decade in WoW until pretty much every class had no depth or identity left. It's one of the reasons I left that game for good and I don't want to see that happen here.

There's some big differences between WOW and FFXIV that you're sort of overlooking here.

For one, the classes in WOW basically did not exist in Warcraft as they are until WOW.

Warcraft being an RTS and all. So WOW essentially invented its own interpretation of those classes, and laid the groundwork for them. Any deviation from those classes by Blizzard over time would rightly lead people to feel that they weren't what they're supposed to be.

But Summoner doesn't begin with FFXIV. Most of the Jobs in FFXIV do not begin with FFXIV. And the rest of Final Fantasy is not an RTS.

It is reasonable to expect, the other games being RPGs, and one of them being an MMORPG, that flagship Jobs in FFXIV will resemble the Jobs from other games.

2.0 SMN was unrecognizable as any Summoner that came before it. You can bet that fans of FF outside of XIV coming to the game have been giving Yoshida years worth of feedback saying "Summoner isn't right."

So they took steps to make it right. Because they listen to overwhelming feedback.

[kejakalope]

Completely unapproachable? What are you even talking about. None of the classes in this game are no where near that hard, SHB SMN included, outside of like the top 1% of parses. The only version of the class that was actually a little bit "unapproachable" was SB SMN during Bahamuts burst phase because some peoples hands couldn't do it.

And if you thought it was "unapproachable" then you should of found something else to play instead of trying to dumb down this class so you can play it. Thanks for ruining the class because you couldn't understand a 120s rotation.

The simple fact of the matter is, Square would not have done what they did if their data didn't suggest a majority of players found the job unsatisfying due to a combination of being extremely demanding + not delivering on the fantasy they wanted; and if their data didn't suggest the number of people engaging the job was so low that they felt the work they were putting into it was being squandered on a failed design.

[Vegituh]

The simple fact of the matter is, Square would not have done what they did if their data didn't suggest a majority of players found the job unsatisfying due to a combination of being extremely demanding + not delivering on the fantasy they wanted; and if their data didn't suggest the number of people engaging the job was so low that they felt the work they were putting into it was being squandered on a failed design.

Years of people whinging on the forums about "Class fantasy" and "clunk" is what killed this class. The class was not under-represented in game at any point from the metrics we have available, like Lucky Bancho. But unfortunately, Squares motivations or metrics are completely unknown because they never release any concrete info. And of course more people play the class now. Its easier and its flashy. Doesn't mean its a good class.

[seraf]

Complexity for the sake of being complex is not good gameplay either. I much prefer this version of Summoner and have been having a blast playing it in lv.90 content so far.

[kejakalope]

Years of people whinging on the forums about "Class fantasy" and "clunk" is what killed this class. The class was not under-represented in game at any point from the metrics we have available, like Lucky Bancho. But unfortunately, Squares motivations or metrics are completely unknown because they never release any concrete info. And of course more people play the class now. Its easier and its flashy. Doesn't mean its a good class.

It was the single least-played job in the game by the end of Shadowbringers. The numbers are the numbers, and the numbers are what Square pays attention to. Also, you can sneer at "class fantasy" all you like, but it's why I myself jumped off Summoner shortly after ARR launched once I realized it was never going to, even at level 50, call down a real Primal for even a single attack, but instead would just have three plastic doodads from a gumball machine and babysit a bunch of DoTs. I jumped ship to Monk.

Now I'm playing Summoner again because it's finally a real Summoner. I am far from alone.