Seems like blue dps is still king so DRK will rule the savage

[Ignimortis]

Except that's actually wrong. Because RPR outside of a singular party buff is an extremely selfish DPS and the reason MNK is over performing when optimizing is because of RoW.

Auto attacks are a huge part of a dps'es performance. RPR/SAM/MNK already have great auto attacking as nothing they do outside of moving out of range or facing away (thus cancelling/losing autos themselves) throw in that MNK gives themselves a 50% auto attack refresh buff and you're in for some very nutty numbers.

Hmmm. Interesting, I completely forget about AAs a lot of the time, but MNK actually does have a very quick AA which presumably does the same damage as other melee' AAs with the same weapon damage.

Why do people always act like NIN is some amazing utility job when they literally got none aside from lol-Feint? They lost all their utility when aggro management stopped being a thing in SHB. Trick is not utility - it's a raid dps buff and as such, is already accounted for in the rDPS rankings(aka all that people look at since certain website switched to those), at which NIN is again positioned rather poorly.

If you're going to balance by utility, NIN and DRG should both be at the top of the rDPS along with SAM, then BLM right after because they at least get Addle, which is far better than Feint. I'd even argue NIN and DRG should be ahead of SAM due to their rDPS being dependent on coordination with other people. However I am skeptical as to SE giving a crap about utility balancing, as the only melee dps with any are MNK and RPR and they're both up there in terms of aDPS and rDPS alike.

Eh, if we're going by rDPS, then all melee should be somewhat equal with proper play (that's kinda the point of rDPS, the actual amount of DPS you provide to the raid?). You could even indeed argue that NIN and DRG could be ahead of SAM at the very top rDPS rankings due to good coordination, although I'm not sure that's a good idea, SAM already got the stink eye back in StB for being "selfish".

I was talking more about aDPS numbers. But yes, since aggro management (and Goad, can't forget Goad, before every melee got it, and then it got removed too with TP) is gone, NIN doesn't actually have a lot of utility that isn't a DPS buff. If you don't consider DPS buffs to be utility, then only RPR and MNK even have any special ones at this point.

[Noraiga]

I don't think that people play TANK just to play DPS at the end.

No one care about DPS on DRK being top tier dps doesn't mean that the job is good, everybody care about "Balance between job (dps+utility)", "Identity" and for tank "Mitigation".
A dps will basically care about... DPS first.

It is not a very wise argument to throw "good dps = good tank".

[Weetzlo]

The rDPS difference between the strongest and weakest tanks is 291. The rDPS difference between the top and bottom of the DPS charts is 904. There is only 1 DPS within 291 of the top. Tank damage is very balanced within the role and anyone who tries to argue for a DRK being brought only for damage or for a PLD being benched for damage is batty. You could argue that the role should do more or less damage or something but that's it.

[Falar]

You need to start reading before commenting, yes DRK doesn’t have as much as sustain as WAR or PLD but they are top DPS. Do you read the part about the TRADE OFF?

Did Gunbreaker trade off dungeon viability for top DPS last expansion? Did Paladin in Stormblood?

[Absurdity]

Did Gunbreaker trade off dungeon viability for top DPS last expansion? Did Paladin in Stormblood?

The 2nd one is either the worst example ever or you mixed up Shadowbringer and Stormblood, playing Paladin in dungeons was an absolutely miserable experience in Stormblood.

[WhyAmIHere]

So your assessment is "DRK does good damage, therfore absouletly fine + no one cares about anything other than extreme/savage content (which excludes, like, the entire main story btw)"

You're literally whats wrong with this games identity crisis at the moment.

It's a Tank, no one cares/should care how much damage it does. That's not its primary role in a party, it's not even its secondary role in the party. And it shouldn't dictate general use/effectiveness in any gameplay outside of very deliberate speeds runs. Curious, what % of players do you reckon do that? Because that's what you basing DRK's performance off.

I bet you're one of these people who *bases a healers performance off of its dps too, aren't you? Sad.

...
Answer this: How do tanks get and maintain aggro? By doing damage with tank stance on.
If two tanks are fighting the same enemy, with stance on, whoever deals the most damage will more than likely hold aggro.
Dude you quoted has a point. Damage matters, and I'd say is the most important metric of any role in this game, regardless of icon color. The best way to prevent taking damage is to quickly defeat what is causing it.
Healers too should be judged on their damage. That's indicative of their proficiency in healing; they know just when healing is needed, and know to do damage when it is not. Especially more now that Sage exists, as it's healing is tied to it's damaging spells.

But you also have a point. Just because "numbers big" shouldn't justify / excuse the jobs inherent flaws. It's lack of identity, it's lack of self-sustain, it's ongoing state of being ignored when it comes to feedback about the job.

[Shurrikhan]

Except that's actually wrong. Because RPR outside of a singular party buff is an extremely selfish DPS and the reason MNK is over performing when optimizing is because of RoW.

Auto attacks are a huge part of a dps'es performance. RPR/SAM/MNK already have great auto attacking as nothing they do outside of moving out of range or facing away (thus cancelling/losing autos themselves) throw in that MNK gives themselves a 50% auto attack refresh buff and you're in for some very nutty numbers.

Prior to the potency squishes, auto-attacks amounted to about 83.3 ppgcd (or, a consistent 100 potency per 3 seconds, though the interval may vary and the potency proportionately changed with hit, prior to Attack Speed bonuses). As any affects which increase GCD speed also affect Auto-attack speed, this doesn't change with job except under effects such as Riddle of Wind.

And Riddle of Wind amount to only about the potency of a Forbidden Chakra over its duration, so it's far from any significant unique advantage. With MNK weapons using a 2.56 cast, MNK deals ~85.3 potency per auto, and RoW therefore allows for 5-6 extra autos over its duration, in turn equalling 426.5 to 511.8 bonus potency, or at most 341.3 potency, less than an extra TFC, per minute. It's significant (though not greatly so), but not because of its having come from auto-attacks; the source is irrelevant.

[Kalaam]

If two tanks are fighting for aggro, they are being stupid is what they are xD They should cooperate and have one of them drop their stance.

[Navnav]

...
Answer this: How do tanks get and maintain aggro? By doing damage with tank stance on.
If two tanks are fighting the same enemy, with stance on, whoever deals the most damage will more than likely hold aggro.
Dude you quoted has a point. Damage matters, and I'd say is the most important metric of any role in this game, regardless of icon color. The best way to prevent taking damage is to quickly defeat what is causing it.
Healers too should be judged on their damage. That's indicative of their proficiency in healing; they know just when healing is needed, and know to do damage when it is not. Especially more now that Sage exists, as it's healing is tied to it's damaging spells.

But you also have a point. Just because "numbers big" shouldn't justify / excuse the jobs inherent flaws. It's lack of identity, it's lack of self-sustain, it's ongoing state of being ignored when it comes to feedback about the job.

This doesn't make any snse lol. So what tank stances aren't a thing now? Having the skill (albeit small), to switch o nthe stance at the right time isn't a thing now no? What on earth are you talking about. This is not a good argument for tank damage. Say something else lmao...

[WhyAmIHere]

This doesn't make any snse lol. So what tank stances aren't a thing now? Having the skill (albeit small), to switch o nthe stance at the right time isn't a thing now no? What on earth are you talking about. This is not a good argument for tank damage. Say something else lmao...

aight. lemme put it this way since you don't grasp something basic like this.

Try tanking a dungeon. Turn on stance, and only ever auto attack each add.
Then try only doing single target GCD's on trash pulls.
Then try doing just your AoE GCDs.
Then try weaving in your oGCDs.

Now, see which is the most effective method of tanking a dungeon.

Or; if you can't be bothered to think with even a modicum of criticality: my point is with regards to this sentence from DarkDredgen. "It's a Tank, no one cares/should care how much damage it does."
This is a bad sentiment to have. People should care about how much damage a tank is doing within reason. If a tank is at least doing simplistic things in dungeons, i.e. popping mitigation and doing their AoE combo, then that's all well and good. If they're doing pulls, wall to wall or single-pack, and not using AoE, then they're not tanking properly. As the difficulty of the content scales, so does the expectation of the tank, and all players, to perform better. Which means doing more damage.
That aside, another side effect of "doing more damage" is clearing the content faster. That means dungeons go faster, which means you're taking less damage from enemies as they're dying faster. In trials/raids you can worry less about getting to enrage because your damage is higher.

Sure there's more nuance and subtlety to this whole argument, especially when it comes to each tank, and each players comfort both in their chosen tank and the content therein, but that might go over a lotta people's heads if they're still learning. So, "just do more damage 4head" suffices as a "git gud" in my opinion.

Or, disregard what I'm saying because it doesn't align with your worldview. It's whatever, really. I'll be fine regardless.