On the topic of Lyse and Endwalker… (spoilers)

[Rinhi]

What are you talking about? Outside coils, Alisaie was barely in the game until post game Heavensward. She also had a much different path to follow, was never expected to lead, nor was leadership ever thrown onto her without her consent. Not to mention that Alisaie wasn't expected to be the face of Resistance to free an enslaved nation. You cannot compare either as they had different paths to follow and far different struggles and expectations.

nowhere did I say that alisaie did or experienced any of that? you're talking about comparing apples to oranges because I compare simple character tropes that apply to both of them, which are glaringly obvious throughout SB considering you travel with both of them, and you're bringing up things unrelated to that, idgi
I like lyse, more than alisaie in fact, and I was sad she left the scions and more importantly, didn't like how she was portrayed for a while due to the aforementioned inconsistent writing
and yet, I think alisaie got the better end of the stick throughout SB, growing away from that idealistic fighter to what she is now, while at the same time, lyse stayed herself, despite - or maybe because - of her position? she had experienced leaders on her side or right next to her, yet she stayed the same person she was before and didn't really develop much at all until the end, which I found sad and unfair
I mean, her naivety/idealism even made her the butt of a joke for no reason in ShB in one of her few appearances there, which was weird

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

But that's what you're doing. You're comparing two vastly different characters and downplaying the other despite their circumstances, paths, and expectations being vastly different.

Aliasie has never been asked to handle those types of burdens of what Lyse has thrown onto her constantly in Stormblood. Heck, Aliasie even tells the Scions when she joins that she doesn't want to be a leader or wanting special treatment due to her family name. Lyse never had that option and knew that she was being used as a figurehead. Nearly all the major military operations were decided by others. All they needed from Lyse was to smile and wave for the people - thus projecting an image as a Leader when she's just a figurehead. It's why she struggles so much and keep seeking ways to become a better person and leader as the people need out of her.

People also don't just change overnight and Stormblood's events only take place over a couple months if that.

By the Monk 80 Quest and Endwalker, Lyse has developed a lot towards being a Leader and not just a Figurehead.

[Puksi]

My favorite Lyse moment was her calling someone who took a child hostage and brought about that child's death a "hero". /s

[Rinhi]

But that's what you're doing. You're comparing two vastly different characters and downplaying the other despite their circumstances, paths, and expectations being vastly different.

Aliasie has never been asked to handle those types of burdens of what Lyse has thrown onto her constantly in Stormblood. Heck, Aliasie even tells the Scions when she joins that she doesn't want to be a leader or wanting special treatment due to her family name. Lyse never had that option and knew that she was being used as a figurehead. Nearly all the major military operations were decided by others. All they needed from Lyse was to smile and wave for the people - thus projecting an image as a Leader when she's just a figurehead. It's why she struggles so much and keep seeking ways to become a better person and leader as the people need out of her.

People also don't just change overnight and Stormblood's events only take place over a couple months if that.

By the Monk 80 Quest and Endwalker, Lyse has developed a lot towards being a Leader and not just a Figurehead.

idk why we're even arguing cause we fully agree about lyse, tbh

all my post did was give one of the reasons why some people dislike lyse (but also for some reason like hien, despite the two of them being similar imo)
ali and lyse are different, yes, I never argued otherwise, but if you ignore their backstories and their obligations or lack thereof, both occupy the same/similar kind of tropes, and since alisis had better development throughout SB - while lyse stayed relatively the same for no reason up until the end, not to mention the subpar writing at times - people, from what I've seen and read, prefer her over the underdeveloped lyse despite sharing the same role in the scions for a while

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

If you ignore entire characters and push them down to tropes it would be meaningless. Context is important.

Too many that look down on Lyse tend to forget that it's really, really hard to get a beaten down nation to rise back up. Ala Mhigo no longer had the teeth left to bare, the Resistance was barely a thing until Lyse and co showed up which revived hope for them.

I mean, look at Estinien. Dude was pretty much to same for most of Dragoon quests and Heavensward (rarely showing any concern outside killing Nidhogg), it took til the death of Ysayle and the true death of Nidhogg for him to truly change. One of which are Post Heavensward content. He also Kill Stealed Nidhogg from us the first time (after needing protecting the entire fight) yet he's never accused of taking our kill/credit while Lyse is accused of this when she never kill stealed a major character from us nor took credit for it.

For Lyse that type of content came through in the Monk 80 quest and eventually to Endwalker.

What hurt her the most as that Stormblood had to juggle between Doma and Ala Mhigo. So it's easy to forget past events of another with the jumping around. It made Lyse's story feel off at times as for her not much time had passed while the player was around Doma.

[KizuyaKatogami]

But does it *really* count as taking initiative if even Little Sun is more impressive in Garlemald?

Tbf magnai is more impressive than like 90% of the scions lmao. That isn’t saying much in the grand scheme of things though.

[ElizanderNorisse]

I always liked her to be honest. Especially at the end of Heavensward, even though that irked many but I wasn’t. And I grew to like her later on.

[Tlamila]

I always loved Lyse, since she came out as her true self. All the hate towards her makes me sad, and I honestly wish we would have gotten her around more in EW.
Note: she's aslo a hugger.

[ElizanderNorisse]

I always loved Lyse, since she came out as her true self. All the hate towards her makes me sad, and I honestly wish we would have gotten her around more in EW.
Note: she's aslo a hugger.

I agree. I'm glad she's her own person now. Not living in the shadow of her sister anymore.