Healer design is still terrible and I'm tired of apologizing for it.

[Silver-Strider]

It's also the least played healer, by far.



SGE "is less clunky SCH" or "SCH without making choices on DPS vs healing, it can have both".. given the frequent SCH complaints about AF on Energy Drain vs Heals and Dissipation..

And SGE has increased in popularity quite quickly.

The masses have spoken. They prefer their healers simple.

How much of that though is because of the changes to SCH and AST over the years?
AST's entire lore and old identity as a pseudo time mage has been completely gutted and SCH still has so much anti synergy with its toolkit that why should people put up with that when there's plenty of other classes they can play? Then you have to take into account that WHM is the most beginner friendly of the healers and we have an influx of WoW refugees that are trying to familiarize themselves with the game that might appreciate a simpler approach before diving into the other healers.

Simplicity isn't the only reason that WHM and SGE are ahead of SCH and AST.

[Halfgeeek]

If people preferred their healers simple, they wouldn’t be asking for more to do on them.

Sometimes the silent majority exist. Please do not conflate forum commentary of the few, when data for millions exist.

Also, let's not forget, WHM by most is considered to be the simplest healer. It's also the most popular healer and has been for a very long time. People will say things like "because only healer to start is conjuror", actually ignore how easy it is to job change in this game. They also ignore tanks & dps that are not starter jobs being popular.

I don't think it's "the masses" deciding that healers be simple, rather that the devs don't play healers, but Yoshida assured us that they play their own game while laughing at the developers of another, so I dunno...

Your ideals of what a healer should be does not match that of the devs. It does not mean they don't play their own game.

This view of devs as being callous or nefariously mistreating healer jobs/players is a very strange one, and I can't reconcile it with what I have seen of the dev team.

I've come to terms with healers being simple on DPS rotation, rather, I look forward to new, interesting, spectacular and challenging content instead of a wishful healer re-work into a complex DPS job.

ps. I'm progging through the current Panda Savage on the US server in PF with randoms (how the vast majority plays end-game?), and as a SCH the last thing I would worry about is having a more complex way to contribute to DPS. Maybe when it's on farm status for the nth run.. but who's to say even then, having a 1-2-3-4 instead of 1-2 DPS rotation will make it more engaging?

[Halfgeeek]

Wait, what does this data even mean? Players that currently engage into that class or just a class that was leveled? Because this doesn't really tell much. The fact is that a good amount of people don't have strong opinions regarding class design, WHICH doesn't really mean they find it "simple = better'. Sage is popular because it is a new class.

The data reflects jobs with gear at those ilvl segments. At the time of analysis, 580 was top obtainable, while 570 would be end-game.

[AziraSyuren]

I've said it in another thread and I'll say it here: Healers are likely playtested in the context of limit testing fights, where they have to use much more of their healing kit in order for the party to survive. The fact that there are a lot of salty healers on the forums who don't get listened to doesn't change the fact that there are still plenty of contexts in which healing is far more engaging, the listed example being one of them.

That's not to say healer design is good, but healers are by no means ignored or uniquely neglected.

[AFuzzyMu11in]

I finally see the light. 11111111111111 is such inspired, wonderful design now that a bunch of DPS mains who hate healers enjoy playing a lobotomized class in dumdum mode because they'd refuse to play it if it actually took thought.

TBH that is what got me into scholar at first expansions ago. You mean smn but faster ques for everything? Feels exactly the same with a pet "sign me up!" Especially after they removed bane and all that other stuff that made it complex and feel like a pain in the but to just heal. I'm slightly memeing but really being a simpler smn is what got me into the job.

Sometimes the silent majority exist. Please do not conflate forum commentary of the few, when data for millions exist.

Also, let's not forget, WHM by most is considered to be the simplest healer. It's also the most popular healer and has been for a very long time. People will say things like "because only healer to start is conjuror", actually ignore how easy it is to job change in this game. They also ignore tanks & dps that are not starter jobs being popular.



Your ideals of what a healer should be does not match that of the devs. It does not mean they don't play their own game.

This view of devs as being callous or nefariously mistreating healer jobs/players is a very strange one, and I can't reconcile it with what I have seen of the dev team.

I've come to terms with healers being simple on DPS rotation, rather, I look forward to new, interesting, spectacular and challenging content instead of a wishful healer re-work into a complex DPS job.

ps. I'm progging through the current Panda Savage on the US server in PF with randoms (how the vast majority plays end-game?), and as a SCH the last thing I would worry about is having a more complex way to contribute to DPS. Maybe when it's on farm status for the nth run.. but who's to say even then, having a 1-2-3-4 instead of 1-2 DPS rotation will make it more engaging?

BINGO THANK YOU FOR SAYING WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING ALL THIS TIME

[Sebazy]

Reading into the popularity of jobs and trying to correlate that with their viability and strength has always been kind of futile.

Historically WHM was still hugely popular even in terms of logs uploads during 3.5 despite PFs commonly and actively blocking it from joining content at that point.

It must be said right now though, that WHM does a lot more for far fewer button presses vs AST in EX and below content right now.

This view of devs as being callous or nefariously mistreating healer jobs/players is a very strange one, and I can't reconcile it with what I have seen of the dev team.

Then explain why Draw, Play, Minor Arcana and Minor Play are 4 buttons instead of 2 for AST? Why didn't Afflatus Misery get scaled up with this expansion for WHM? There's plenty more especially if I dig into the archives but these two are great current examples.

Whilst I don't think SE are being callous, that's just a stupid assumption if anyone stretches to that. However I do think that it's fair to say that they aren't investing enough resources across design, development and playtesting into making the healer role the best it can be. It just feels like a rushed job *every time* when it just has no need to given the money this game brings in.

I wouldn't use the word mistreated. Neglected is more accurate.

[WaxSw]

This view of devs as being callous or nefariously mistreating healer jobs/players is a very strange one, and I can't reconcile it with what I have seen of the dev team.

I've come to terms with healers being simple on DPS rotation, rather, I look forward to new, interesting, spectacular and challenging content instead of a wishful healer re-work into a complex DPS job.

ps. I'm progging through the current Panda Savage on the US server in PF with randoms (how the vast majority plays end-game?), and as a SCH the last thing I would worry about is having a more complex way to contribute to DPS. Maybe when it's on farm status for the nth run.. but who's to say even then, having a 1-2-3-4 instead of 1-2 DPS rotation will make it more engaging?

Do you realize that you're justifying the existence of an awful design because the hps requirements blind savage runs and mistakes there have? Do you realize that as soon as you know the mechanics (or in other words by the 2nd clear, 3rd at most if you learn slowly) everything will be braindead 1 button spam again? Do you realize that good job design should work in every kind of content and not only the hardest hitting one?

I dont see blms or other dps complaining their job is only fun in savage for the first weeks or that they dont need to use half of their toolkit in almost every content available

About the population, that thing has been debunked for years but for some reason some people still use it as proof for shitty arguments, people having X weapon does not proof anything because 1st, whm is the most popular healer due to being iconic and the only one you can play from the start not because how good the job is, 2nd people that main other jobs can get weapons for jobs they do not main, especially now since the 580 weapon mean that you only did a non weekly locked super easy ex so ofc a lot of players not interested in healers may have whm weapon as is the simplest and more aproachable for rouletes and casual stuff and 3rd having a weapon or gearing a job doesnt mean you're satisfied with the job and a lot of healers suffer that, I for example have been complaining of the awful state of Sch post Shb yet I mained it through the entirety of Shb, was I satisfied? No, Did I count as one of the Sch players with 475/505/535 weapon? yes

[Visanis]

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record...

Warhammer Online's healers were an interesting case study in this sort of thing. Whilst the execution wasn't perfect across the board, the healers were very tightly designed with large amounts of cross kit synergy. With the melee healer you quite literally fed the resource needed for your powerhouse burst and aoe heals by swinging your hammer. The cleric style healer had a complex buff system to play around with. The robed healer was built around the mechanic that the more you DPS'd, the more your heals were enhanced whilst the more you healed, the more your DPS spells were enhanced with the goal being to try and maintain a median to get the best results.

Again, it wasn't entirely perfect, the robed healer was arguably the least well tuned of the 3 with it's system not really paying off but I'll argue that for all it's flaws, the melee healers were the most enjoyable well designed and rewarding healing experience I've ever seen in any MMO I've played. It rewarded playing on the edge and taking educated risks like no other healer.

Basically, if it was my task to tackle this issue, my first avenue would be looking at interactions and synergy within our kit or other ways in which good play could actively be rewarded.

I have to agree with some points about the healers from Warhammer Online. Some things like the stat buffing/stealing from the warrior priest/disciple of Khaine and their prayers wouldn't transfer well to here, but the idea of feeding their resources to one another constantly would be refreshing.

The constant balance between general resources and class specific resources, alongside the risk and planning of engaging for the buffs to support and resource generation use big heals, made them the most fun to play. This stuff could also apply to tanks with how ironbreaker/blackguard had their hate mechanics too.

That's sadly missing from XIV. Instead, we now have the "babies first bike with training wheels" type healers.

[HyoMinPark]

Sometimes the silent majority exist. Please do not conflate forum commentary of the few, when data for millions exist.

You are being disingenuous by trying to use the data you posted as any defense of the “silent majority prefer their healers to be simple” when it proves nothing of the sort. There are many reasons for what you posted, the biggest one being that SGE is the brand new healer toy after 6 years of healers not getting a new job within their role. That in an of itself is a huge factor in why it is so popular.

You are also neglecting the job design flaws of the other three that have been voiced here and on the subreddits by both hardcore healer mains and casual healer mains. Of all the job changes, when the AST cards were overhauled in ShB, a lot of the complaints came from your casual healer because the flavorful mechanic they loved about the job was dumbed down and changed.

Also, let's not forget, WHM by most is considered to be the simplest healer. It's also the most popular healer and has been for a very long time. People will say things like "because only healer to start is conjuror", actually ignore how easy it is to job change in this game. They also ignore tanks & dps that are not starter jobs being popular.

WHM is the most accessible of the four healers, being available from the start of the game and the easiest of the four to learn due to being straight-forward and beginning friendly. It is also a Final Fantasy staple. But what you are failing to realize is that this does not mean that people prefer simpler healers when a lot of players—especially those invested in the Final Fantasy genre—flock to a job due to aesthetic.

This has always been extremely common with BRD, who is by far the easiest to play DPS and has always been the most popular (with the exception of ShB—even HW bowmage was one of the highest played DPS jobs back then despite the mass exodus of BRDs): people like the bow and arrow aesthetic, or they are drawn to the idea of a more traditional, Final Fantasy BRD—and then sorely disappointed when that does not exist in this game. There have been countless topics about this on both this forum and the FFXIV subreddits. The same applies to WHM.

You are trying to present an argument that your data does not support because your data is way too vague. There are far too many variables to consider as to why it exists the way it does, so trying to argue “people prefer simple healers, look!” is flawed.

Your ideals of what a healer should be does not match that of the devs. It does not mean they don't play their own game.

Except it has been proven time and time again that the development team for FFXIV is extremely out of touch with the way players play their game. Again, this has been the case for years. I wouldn’t expect someone who hasn’t been playing that long to realize this, but it is very well documented in places other than just the forums.

This view of devs as being callous or nefariously mistreating healer jobs/players is a very strange one, and I can't reconcile it with what I have seen of the dev team.

While I wouldn’t call it callous or nefarious, the developers have been severely neglecting healers in terms of job design and balance. WHM was ignored for the entirety of Stormblood with its pointless Lily system in favor of them spouting “Just try it out! You’ll like it! We promise!” Except players hated the original lilies because they had zero bearing on the way you played WHM. The Lily gauge was thrown into the corner of your screen and blatantly ignored.

I've come to terms with healers being simple on DPS rotation, rather, I look forward to new, interesting, spectacular and challenging content instead of a wishful healer re-work into a complex DPS job.

And time and time again the developers have proven that they will not give us more challenging content in terms of healing. Even Ultimate, the hardest content in this game, still requires less than 50% of a healer’s casts be used on healing—GCD or oGCD. It’s a far cry from the simplicity of dungeons; but it’s also not this Uber challenging piece of content that suddenly requires 80% healing uptime because high damage is constantly rolling out to flatten the party.

I've said it in another thread and I'll say it here: Healers are likely playtested in the context of limit testing fights, where they have to use much more of their healing kit in order for the party to survive. The fact that there are a lot of salty healers on the forums who don't get listened to doesn't change the fact that there are still plenty of contexts in which healing is far more engaging, the listed example being one of them.

That's not to say healer design is good, but healers are by no means ignored or uniquely neglected.

So are you saying that, at minimum item level blind progression, healers have to heal more because they have no context regarding the fights or their damage = more engaging healing? That’s what it sounds like—and while not incorrect, it’s a flawed premise.

You are ignoring that minimum item level doesn’t last beyond week 1. Blind progression doesn’t last beyond the first or second clear. And now where does that leave healing? Scripted and back to mindless nuke spam for the majority of a fight. This has been well-documented throughout the years if you pull any decent healer log for any Savage or Ultimate fight. None of them require high healing uptime. A healer’s most pressed abilities are its damage abilities; and the ratio of them compared to healing ones is always heavily skewed in favor of the damage ones.

Why does healer engagement rely upon doing a fight blind—so you don’t know when and where to expect damage, and any good healer would default to playing it safe versus not—or reliably upon another condition put forth in another healer thread: relying on a healer‘s party being an absolute clown fiesta so that they are forced into babysitting the group?

I ask you this as someone who opts to heal new content day one because that is when it will be at its most challenging. It’s new. People fumble. People make mistakes. And I have no idea when to expect damage. I ask you this as someone who frequently heals 24-mans due to the staggeringly high possibility of each run becoming a meme that requires me to healer LB3 more often than not. Why do I have to go out of my way to find engaging healer play versus just having it naturally?

[Risvertasashi]

This has always been extremely common with BRD, who is by far the easiest to play DPS and has always been the most popular (with the exception of ShB—even HW bowmage was one of the highest played DPS jobs back then despite the mass exodus of BRDs): people like the bow and arrow aesthetic, or they are drawn to the idea of a more traditional, Final Fantasy BRD—and then sorely disappointed when that does not exist in this game. There have been countless topics about this on both this forum and the FFXIV subreddits. The same applies to WHM.

Um, what?

I don't really care about most of your post's argument but this is just flat out wrong about bard. It's not popular (and hasn't been for a long time), it is not a low APM DPS nor is it "easy" by any nonsubjective metric - DNC and MCH both had simpler rotations, while with BRD missing a proc by even a few hundred milliseconds is a DPS loss.

In ShB, the only DPS that had significantly higher median than average was MCH, suggesting it was the easiest - but this seems to have been fixed by EW, as it is no longer the case. Could still argue it's easier because it's a set rotation instead of having to watch for/worry about procs, though.

You may have had a case allllllll the way back in ARR but that's the better part of a decade out of date.