The Problems With Ninja In Endwalker

[Tyrovar]

I was antsy about this patch at first because I had spent so much time practicing the old opener, but after trying it out on the dummies a few times, I have to say that I'm impressed. The changes not only make it easier to fit everything into your Trick Attack window (which is something that I was personally still struggling with), but also resolve the gap-closer problem without bloating our keybinds or removing the option of having a gap closer to begin with. Maybe my opinion will change once I actually take it into raid encounters, but regardless, it certainly seems to me like a lot of thought was put into this. At the very least, I'd say it's worth giving a fair shake before writing it off

[YourBoii]

It’s not prefect but it’s SO much better than before. Being able to choose to use a gap closer or not makes it actually playable again. I’m honestly surprised to see people saying they want it changed back because they whole reason the changed it this patch was because everyone hated it. The only thing they need to do now is make it so it isn’t cancelled by the 1,2,3 combo.

I don't think most people hated it but hated the fact you had to use it or loose it. Same as you said, all they really had to do was make it not be canceled from weapon skills which would have fixed the forced dashed when you didnt want to issue, max melee issue, can't use while bound issue, and still make it more flexible. Granted the change did fix those specific issues but I liked having 2 gap closers ready if needed just not forced to use them right after Raiton. For example, the rare cases when I had the buff and forked raiju to kill an add then fleeted right back to the boss was so satisfying.

[Fourbestintoner]

After doing some of the fights, I must say, I absolutely love overcapping ninki by 1 gcd almost every ta! Good change, clap, should have kept the 6 raijus, making them separate was the only good thing they did.

[Burningskull]

I only play NIN in dungeons and stuff but I preferred Fleeting and Forked Raiju being a combo. Made it more interesting to me. Perhaps instead of splitting them they should have just limited you to 1 stack of it instead of 3?

[Yuurei_007]

Raiju
+ add a ressource management, to be more busy outside trick attack window (but this ressource is generally quickly used)
+ removal of the combo Forked Raiju + Fleeting Raiju, by separating them, bringing more flexibility, with Forked Raiju adding one additional gap closer to Shukuchi for more versatility (Shukuchi has a limited range and is not always that easy to use on console even with macro), while reducing Raiju frequency which was too high in 6.0
+ both Raiju skills feel more powerful since potency have been increased
+ finishing with Forked Raiju in the 6.0 opener was strange, we can finish now with Fleeting Raiju which is more logic
+ we can now use Forked Raiju or Fleeting Raiju since in melee range since both does the same potency, allowing us to use any combo we like
+/- the downside is that a player can choose to never use Fleeting Raiju and use Forked Raiju instead all the time, but Fleeting Raiju animation is greater than Forked Raiju, I guess for most of the players, so either increase Fleeting Raiju potency a little bit or stay like that.
+/- using melee range skill breaking Raiju feels ok and logic for me, we just needs time to get used to it in my opinion
+/- removal of the Raiju combo implies less high potency GCD skills within Trick Attack window (2 Raiju skills for each Raiton VS 1 now), which would logically lead to 2 Raiju, 1 Aeolian Edge and 1 Kamaitachi within this window, but...

Kamaitachi
+/- its use outside Bunshin while adding 5+5 ninki feels strange, since we lose 5 ninki (40 potency, if we plan to use Bhavacakra later) each time we use Kamaitachi within Bunshin window, which would mean it would generally be better to use it outside Trick Attack window for DPS gain, except if there are enough jobs in the team to bring enough DPS buff to compensate for ; with Doton pre-pull (I never use personally), i did not do math in that case, but it is maybe always a DPS gain to still have Kamaitachi within Trick Attack while losing 5 free ninki
+ more flexibility/versatility to use it, since we can hold it when we need to exit from melee range and we do not have ninjutsu ready, to avoid as much as possible Throwing Dagger

Fuuton
- reducing from 70s to 60s is bad (less flexibility)

Throwing Dagger
+ no break combo, which brang complexity for nothing in my opinion before since we needed to consider which skill in combo we planned to use

Shadow Fang
- remove some interesting thought on when use it or not, but animation is not that great ; it could be interesting to bring it back currently for trick attack window,
and ninja is not very fun to play until level 35 because no lots of skills to use in practice, and maybe replace it by a new ninjutsu doing the same DoT for next expansion.

Hollow Nozuchi
+ increase Doton use frequency since it was not used often before since foes needed to live during almost the whole duration of Doton to be better than Katon, while it is harder to keep foes within the area of effect of Doton, which was not logic
+/- the downside is that we are more dependent on tank but we just have to be more careful, which is not a bad point for me

Assassination
+/- depends on people, but either stay like that to have an opener a little less busy than before, or add a proc to Dream within a dream to use it after

Furaijin
- take 1 place whereas it should be almost never used (only for recovery or long downtime or laziness) ; for example : if ninjutsu and mudra skill is not used during at least 3s or after being resurrected, ninjutsu becomes Furaijin until one mudra is used

Opener trick attack window
- Need concentration to put all skills within attack window right now with trick attack delay, but either consider using vivacity materia as priority until reaching comfort or reducing raijus skills to 2s (which should be ninjutsu skills instead of weaponskills) could help in that way.

Conclusion
I would like SQ to bring back 70s Fuuton, Shadow Fang, increasing a little Fleeting Raiju potency, removing free 5 ninki outside bunshin for Kamaitachi, find a way if possible to get access to Furaijin during downtime without using 1 space in bar only for it (one example above), a way to smooth a little the opener and it would be perfect for me.

[AlnoAshen]

phantom kamaitachi: making it that you can use it in a period of 45 secs is a great change that gives ninja versitility,as it a ranged attack,so you can use it to disengage.

Raijus:i hated that the raijus were forced gap closers,but on the other hand i have to to admit that aa did find the gap closers to be useful for keeping uptime in some situations.The current changes to raijus ensure that we get the best of both worlds,we can use it to gap close we it is needed or use it as a normal gcd,which is very versatile

Pros:The current ninja is incrdibly versatile rn with having the ability to use 2raitons,hyosho,TCJ,phantom to disengage and gap close it with a raiju

Cons:I do miss the raiju combo a tiny tiny tiny bit,the way the raijus comboed into each other,it felt like ninjas were bursting for way longer that just the trick window

Alltogether,im very happy with the changes made to ninja,and i was malding at devs super hard when ninja was bad,so id like to thank them now for listening to the community.

[AlnoAshen]

I don't think most people hated it but hated the fact you had to use it or loose it. Same as you said, all they really had to do was make it not be canceled from weapon skills which would have fixed the forced dashed when you didnt want to issue, max melee issue, can't use while bound issue, and still make it more flexible. Granted the change did fix those specific issues but I liked having 2 gap closers ready if needed just not forced to use them right after Raiton. For example, the rare cases when I had the buff and forked raiju to kill an add then fleeted right back to the boss was so satisfying.

What are you gonna do with 2 gap closers,mate?u only need 1 to close the gap.dont get it twisted the changes they made is one step ahead of the changes we were asking for,i and i bet any hardcore raider would take this over having to gap close,which not only changes ur position,but also locks in an animation lock any day.Moreover,if people are fan of the gap closing animation or whatever,they can always use forked instead of fleeting

[inhaledcorn]

I don't raid on NIN, but I do play it on occasion. I still don't like Forked/Fleeting since it completely changes our relationship with Trick and Raiton. I makes it difficult to fit all of those skills into a TA window. It's very annoying that it procs off of every Raiton cast, including the one in TCJ, which further compounds this issue. It feels like to me that NINs rotation completely changes at 90 instead of building off of what was already established. So, my proposal is thus:

Have Fleeting Raiju be an Enhanced Kassatsu ability. (Enhanced Kassatsu II)

With Enhanced Kassatsu II, Kassatsu's effect is changed to this: While under the effect of Kassastsu, "Ten" is changed to "Gokka Mekkyaku", "Chi" is changed to "Fleeting Raiju", and "Jin" is changed to "Hyosho Ranryu" while granting two stacks of Kassatsu. Executing "Gokka Mekkyaku," "Fleeting Raiju," and "Hyosho Ranryu", will consume one stack of "Kassatsu" as well as preventing that same Ninjutsu cast. (Duration: 30s)

Fleeting Raiju would change to an AoE with damage fall off so that it's used in either AoE or single-target. Then you have the option of using Gokka or Ranryu depending on the amount of targets.

I would changed Forked Raiju to an Ability, doesn't gap close, and is only executed under the effect of "Enhanced Meisui" (bringing the level it's learned at lower). Enhanced Meisui boosting Bhavachakra reduces the effectiveness of Fuma/Ka/Sui in AoE, assuming you already have a Doton out.

And one more change I want: Shukiko III affects Death Blossom and Hakke Mujinsatsu instead of Aeolian/Armor Crush. Ninja is generating too much Ninki in single-target while not generating nearly enough in AoE, which is especially baffling since Hollow Nozuchi can proc off of Hellfrog Medium casts. Ninja feels very feast-or-famine in single-target vs AoE.

[Noraiga]

High skill ceiling for garbage dps no place for one miss/failure, it's not even decent or average. ( don't simplify it, just upgrade the damage )
That's my only issue.

[YourBoii]

What are you gonna do with 2 gap closers,mate?u only need 1 to close the gap.dont get it twisted the changes they made is one step ahead of the changes we were asking for,i and i bet any hardcore raider would take this over having to gap close,which not only changes ur position,but also locks in an animation lock any day.Moreover,if people are fan of the gap closing animation or whatever,they can always use forked instead of fleeting

I played it yesterday to give it a try. And to be honest its even more boring now to me. Yes it helps with fiting everything in the trick window instead of being forced 6 gcd's of raiju in a row but outside of TA I feel im almost basically 1,2,3 comboing again and quit frankly its boring compared to the double raiju animation we just had. As stated before by many others including the orginal author of this thread the main issue people disliked wasn't because its a gap closer but the fact of being forced to gap close back to back after every Raiton since raiju breaks on weapon skills