Disappointed in one Endwalker Aspect [SPOILERS]

[Cleretic]

...the Sundering plan worked, though. Like, it literally, verifiably worked. It took a long damn while, but it worked.

We're supposed to believe that she had faith in mankind to live for tomorrow, but she didn't have faith in her own people to even try and help them avert the final days?

I know you're not really listening to Venat's angle, but Emet-Selch directly says that her plan worked when the Ancients' wouldn't have.

It's totally valid to argue that what Venat did was awful, something that horribly wronged her people and she perhaps shouldn't have done, and that is in fact an intended angle written within the game; we're supposed to question that either the Zodiark or Hydaelyn side was morally right on that day. But it can't be argued that her plan failed, or that someone else had a better idea; that's just not what happened.

[AlexionSkyllark]

I came into the story hoping that Hydaelyn was actually going to be the villain of the story all along and we have been doing her bidding because we were "tempered" to her

Lots of people were betting on that. It would be a predictable course. ANd frankly, the "the patron/mentor/guardian was the villain all along" is such an overused trope. It wouldn't be good storytelling, on the contrary, it'd be cliché as hell.

Also: FF7 is not a masterpiece

[sidurgu-12]

Also: FF7 is not a masterpiece

THEMS FIGHTING WOR...... yeah, have to agree with you there. imo theres quite a few tonal whiplashs and dragging moments. its good but no masterpiece.

Lots of people were betting on that. It would be a predictable course. And frankly, the "the patron/mentor/guardian was the villain all along" is such an overused trope. It wouldn't be good storytelling, on the contrary, it'd be cliché as hell.

this was my biggest fear going in but happily that didn't happen. now im just afraid that's whats gonna happen for myths of the realm.

[Rulakir]

It's laughable to me that her plan could be viewed as any kind of success. It was sheer luck at the end. Had it not been for Zenos as Shinryu we would not have been able to defeat Meteion because she would've fled with us not having a way to reach her. The amount of variables involved in that happening are astronomical and absolutely could not be accounted for either.

Edit: Instead we got the subverted trope.

[KariTheFox]

Yes, there were a lot of variables that Venat did not and could not have accounted for. But that's because her "plan" was not a intricate rube goldberg machine she set up for us to follow. Her plan only went as far as making sure there was someone stronger than her, who could travel to Ultima Thule and confront Meteion.

After that point, she's placing her hopes and trust into us to finish what she started. This is consistent with Venat having faith in the future, in our ability to move forward even without her guidance.

Edit: This imo is what Emet-Selch meant when he said Venat's plan was the right one. Having hope for the future and faith in those who come after you will succeed whereas trying to return to the past will end in failure.

[Cleretic]

Yes, there were a lot of variables that Venat did not and could not have accounted for. But that's because her "plan" was not a intricate rube goldberg machine she set up for us to follow. Her plan only went as far as making sure there was someone stronger than her, who could travel to Ultima Thule and confront Meteion.

After that point, she's placing her hopes and trust into us to finish what she started. This is consistent with Venat having faith in the future, in our ability to move forward even without her guidance.

Edit: This imo is what Emet-Selch meant when he said Venat's plan was the right one. Having hope for the future and faith in those who come after you will succeed whereas trying to return to the past will end in failure.

All of this, exactly. On top of that, while yes her plan did hinge a lot on essentially the roll of the dice, they're dice that the Ancients would have been unable to roll. Yeah, we got lucky that Zenos turned up when he did, but in any other plan he wouldn't have turned up at all.

I remember a similar argument about the MCU's 'twenty-eight million possible futures, and we win in one of them'. In that case Dr. Strange literally did have infallible vision of the future (as opposed to Venat, who got a single testimony told by someone who we later discovered definitely didn't have the whole picture), so I saw people arguing 'it's absurd that he planned all of this when so much relies on luck', and... well, he didn't. A lot of that success really did come down to luck. But what they really did with that information wasn't 'set up for a random animal to free Ant-Man five years in the future', it was 'do everything in our power to set things up right, and then cross our fingers and hope fate turns our way'.

Venat's plan had a chance of working, even if it was only a chance. Nobody else's did.

...and then you have to add in that this is the end of a fairly long story. The culmination of multiple heroes' journeys (and a few villains'). Of course that's going to read like the plan was luck-reliant, that's not a bad thing, because it means the characters mattered. Is Lord of the Rings a bad story because the plan to get Frodo all the way to Mt. Doom seemed pretty unlikely?

[Insertusernamehere]

I couldn't understand time travel story:

Venat can't give you "Elpis flower" if she does not know your existence in Elpis and you cannot exist in Elpis if Venat can't give you "Elpis flower".

[RyuDragnier]

I couldn't understand time travel story:

Venat can't give you "Elpis flower" if she does not know your existence in Elpis and you cannot exist in Elpis if Venat can't give you "Elpis flower".

It's a Causal Loop. Event A (meeting in Elpis) must occur for everything leading up to event B (Venat giving flower) to occur, which eventually results in the time travel that leads to Event A. Both Events must always happen, and there's no way to know where it started or ended. In essence, a "Chicken and Egg" paradox.

[Insertusernamehere]

It's a Causal Loop. Event A (meeting in Elpis) must occur for everything leading up to event B (Venat giving flower) to occur, which eventually results in the time travel that leads to Event A. Both Events must always happen, and there's no way to know where it started or ended. In essence, a "Chicken and Egg" paradox.

It looks like "reverse grandfather paradox" :3 or.. I am missed something in story.

[Rulakir]

Venat's plan had a chance of working, even if it was only a chance. Nobody else's did.

There is nothing in game that supports this.