To all the sprouts(new people) out there...

[Accolades]

The go, go, go attitude is way more common in FFXIV then wow. At least in wow they at one time had dungeons where crowd control was mandatory. This wall to wall pulls in mmorpgs are completely stupid and I blame the developers of the game not the community.

[Makeda]

This isn't world of warcraft. Stop treating dungeons like it is.

Edit for clarity: Almost every dungeon for the past couple weeks has been a complete mess of people with sprout icons trying to bumrush everything as if they are all immortal. I made the WoW reference because running dungeons in that game is honestly what it reminds me of, and not in a good way.

I apologize for directing my angst towards the WoW players, but where else should I direct it with how much worse it has gotten recently?

For years in FFXIV people have been telling me that the tank MUST chain pull all the way to the door of the boss.

When I'm tanking if I slow down even just enough to ensure I've got AoE threat on the mobs, the healer runs ahead and pulls the next 73 packs and purposefully wipes us just to punish me for locking down aggro... and that's been FFXIV since 2013.

How is this a WoW refugee issue?


I went back to WoW for the launch of Shadowbringers and stayed until just before 9.1 ...
- Chain pulling was only a thing in higher ranked M+ runs where it was PRESUMED that everybody knew the fights and knew their roles and classes well enough to sustain us to the boss. Even with this - only Demon Hunter tanks would facepull past trash mobs without getting threat (In all my time in WoW, I never once met a good DH tank. Weirdly I met a lot of great tanks who, as soon as they logged into their DH, put on their Leeroy Jenkins pants and proceeded to do everything badly...). All other tanks would use 1-2 AoEs to get threat as they ran through. And in any lower content people paced and took their time (largely because the people running lower content were also undergeared and not skilled enough for the higher M+s).

The only reason people chain pull in high rank M+ over in WoW is because they give you 23-seconds to do a full 42-boss dungeon and if you fail they downgrade your key, line you up outside Orgrimmar and make your toon wear a cone of shame, then give you a 73-day account suspension... Or so it feels sometimes... So you run that sucker as fast as you can or suffer your cone of shame for failure. As in... WoW actually punishes failure on those things... so you have to chain pull.

[AlyaNimfa]

One does not simply post negative a thread about WoW players without being flamed.

[Lunalepsy]

How 'bout you actually say what you mean and don't just act like a condescending jerk.

Great Community By The Way /s

The best of communities!

[Shironeko_Narunyan]

The difference here though is that we kill the pulls and don't start running with the last 2 mobs at half health. That's how tanks handled it in WOW back when I last played (WOTLK).

[ArkenaeuxBelmont]

If a tank can handle the pull with the mitigation they have and skill they have, and the healer can keep them alive, wall to wall pulling has been the standard. When I tank, I ask at the start of the dungeon "How big do you want me to pull?".

One simple line sets the pace for the entire dungeon. The healer wants smaller pulls and is newer and less confident, I slowly ease them into bigger pulls to give them the confidence. By the end of the dungeon, 9 times out of 10 they are healing a wall to wall pull.

Now one thing I will disagree with that I saw mentioned, was someone saying the "Galaxy brained tank" taking a second or two to lock down aggro and then twitchy DPS running ahead and pulling instead. Curb your twitchyness, DPS. I'll pull it in a second. Sometimes Overpower's cone misses a mob from it's crash point for whatever reason, and you need to stop for a single second to AOE lock down and then keep going, especially when the second DPS of the group is pounding away at the train of mobs behind my running body. You're getting wall to wall pulls, stop being impatient. It's the difference of literally a few seconds to lock down.

Also, if it's a lower level dungeon *with a newer sprout that is genuinely 100% learning to play*, it is not "holding the group hostage" to go a little slower and break them in. I've heard that one before far too many times. Just because the norm is wall to wall, doesn't mean you throw the poor sprout instantly into the fire.

[kejakalope]

The difference here though is that we kill the pulls and don't start running with the last 2 mobs at half health. That's how tanks handled it in WOW back when I last played (WOTLK).

THAT shit gets on my nerves and is how I know I'm running with a tank that hasn't retrained from WoW yet. Especially when they do it in a party with two casters for DPS.

[Kolsykol]

Rushing isn't rly new, it has become the standard.

I am not particularly fond of it, I miss the days in WoW back in Vanill and TBC when Sheeping and Sapping was still a thing for example.
It felt cool to be doing that and to take it slower and when enemies felt more dangerous.
Even in FFXIV I actually do remember Sleep being used back in the day to CC large packs.

But it's not rly how MMO's work today, to some extent it's a change in mindset and attitudes but it's also because people are just better at MMO's nowadays.
Back in the day most people didn't even have a PC that could run the game properly they ran at like 15-20 fps and were clickers.

Nowadays everyone has a gaming PC and wants wall to wall pulls.

[Shibi]

I miss the days in WoW back in Vanill and TBC when Sheeping and Sapping was still a thing for example.
It felt cool to be doing that and to take it slower and when enemies felt more dangerous.

Sapping was fun in WoW as a twinked level 19 pvp Rogue. heh. All those poor squishies.

In EQ2 I was tank/healer but mained as Illusionist. I'd Mez (sleep) or root pretty much everything then feed them to the tank at a rate the party could handle while keeping the party buffed. Support classes like that are a lot of fun. There isn't much to sleep and no root in FFXIV, I sort of wish there was.

Wall to wall is just a race - kill them before the healer or tank falls over, there is no real deep strategy to it, not to the level one could achieve in an EQ2 run. But it is what it is, and helping ease sprouts into it is what I find most fun in this game.

[Comfort]

I appreciate you have apologised.

But your follow up posts don't show that you have really conceded that you were wrong, just that you don't know who to blame now that people disagree with you. There is no one group to blame.

Players of this game have been running Sastasha and onwards with wall to wall pulling since very early on in this game. If new players (sprouts) have learnt this from anywhere its from the experienced players of the game. New player sprouts are not all WoW players. There are new players on console as well as PC/MAC. Players will be joining because of solid reviews, Steam stats and more.

Unfortunately, some of the sprouts might not truely be ready for pulls like this, they may not use their CDs well or they might overestimate themselves and/or their group. But none of this is new, it has always happened and I have played since 2.0 launch.

I have also played WoW since TBC and there is a heck of a lot of difference between pulling big in that game than in this game. A big part of is it AOE crowd control and I don't expect a tank from WoW to even attempt the same kind of pulls straight away, in this game without more experience.

There is also another type of player you could have come across, that is the type with no MMO experience, the ones who are used to playing games their own way and have been playing FFXIV as a solo experience since they first logged in. This type of player doesn't know any better unless you tell them. This type however, you likely wouldn't find in later game unless they boosted.

In all cases your best approach is to politely tell them that the pulls are too much, please pull X packs max. You will be surprised how accommodating players will be, at the end of the day a few extra minutes is nothing to players for a smooth run. And if they do not you can leave the party and blacklist that player.