Lore Forum Decorum - Just What is Meant by Good/Bad Faith?

[Theodric]

Yep. Probably the part that makes me scratch my head the most. I can understand getting annoyed at constant fake outs, but if you NEED characters to die in order to enjoy the story, it comes off as a wee bit sociopathic.

I think such comments are a rather excellent example of this thread's premise and ties in brilliantly with the points I raised earlier on.

None of the characters in the game are real - they're just pixels on a screen at the end of the day. That doesn't mean people can't have positive, negative or neutral feelings towards them but...it's a video game.

Furthermore, I also think the requests for character deaths are framed deceptively by those seeking to criticise the supposed push. I rarely see anyone pushing for large swathes of characters to be killed off 'just because'. In actuality, it's often suggested that maybe one major death per expansion would help the stakes feel meaningful and leave more room in an already bloated cast for new faces to show up and get involved.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Yep. Probably the part that makes me scratch my head the most. I can understand getting annoyed at constant fake outs, but if you NEED characters to die in order to enjoy the story, it comes off as a wee bit sociopathic.

Truly isn’t a proper lore thread until the self proclaimed psychiatrists join the discussion. Fun times.

[KariTheFox]

Characters don't have to die in order to step aside and make room for new faces. Krile didn't have much screen time in Shadowbringers, we didn't see much of Cid in Endwalker, Lyse hasn't been around much since Stormblood. At no point was it necessary for any of them to die in order for them to step back in the narrative and allow new faces to get involved. (Which Endbringer had plenty of.)

Edit: Also, it's entirely subjective whether or not major character deaths help the stakes feel more meaningful. Personally, I would prefer that they do not die so that more stories can be told about characters that I like.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Characters don't have to die in order to step aside and make room for new faces. Krile didn't have much screen time in Shadowbringers, we didn't see much of Cid in Endwalker, Lyse hasn't been around much since Stormblood. At no point was it necessary for any of them to die in order for them to step back in the narrative and allow new faces to get involved. (Which Endbringer had plenty of.)

No but there should be a feeling of consequence and stakes depending on how severe a situation is in the story, and i think an apocalypse that once decimated the world would be a perfect time for it. Especially if they’re going to have themes about dealing with loss and despair but then have none of that apply to the main cast and only the opposing factions, or continue to try and milk past deaths but have to keep choosing the same 2-3 characters because no one else has died in 6 years lmao. Why is it only the antagonists that have to suffer? It makes the story feel extremely one sided and stale. Also makes things like the final area scenes feel very hollow since it’s obvious they’re going to come back.

[Ryaz]

Truly isn’t a proper lore thread until the self proclaimed psychiatrists join the discussion. Fun times.

Never claimed to be a psychiatrist. I'm not trying to analyze anyone here. So maybe stop putting words in people's mouths?

I'm not against characters dying if done properly (though I'd rather they survive), but Walking Dead style deaths designed for shock value don't do much for me. I feel it's actually the cheapest and laziest way to get reactions out of people. As I mentioned earlier, I got more of a reaction KNOWING the Scions would come back, because I knew what they were sacrificing themselves for, using all their character growth through the expansions to battle the despair that we faced at every turn.

[KariTheFox]

No but there should be a feeling of consequence and stakes depending on how severe a situation is in the story, and i think an apocalypse that once decimated the world would be a perfect time for it. Especially if they’re going to have themes about dealing with loss and despair but then have none of that apply to the main cast and only the opposing factions, or continue to try and milk past deaths but have to keep choosing the same 2-3 characters because no one else has died in 6 years lmao. Why is it only the antagonists that have to suffer? It makes the story feel extremely one sided and stale. Also makes things like the final area scenes feel very hollow since it’s obvious they’re going to come back.

Again, I think that's entirely subjective whether or not character deaths give a story more meaning and consequence. Personally, I'm more interested in questions like "can the twins reconcile with their father?" than "will the twins survive until the end?" - stuff like that is where I find the meaning and consequence in the story. Also - regarding Ultima Thule, I thought it was explicitly stated at the start that we could bring people back, and the story was never about the risk of the scions being dead, but about the WoL having to face these incredibly difficult situations alone; Alisaie's outburst towards the end of Ultima Thule pretty much confirms that.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Never claimed to be a psychiatrist. I'm not trying to analyze anyone here. So maybe stop putting words in people's mouths?

I'm not against characters dying if done properly (though I'd rather they survive), but Walking Dead style deaths designed for shock value don't do much for me. I feel it's actually the cheapest and laziest way to get reactions out of people. As I mentioned earlier, I got more of a reaction KNOWING the Scions would come back, because I knew what they were sacrificing themselves for, using all their character growth through the expansions to battle the despair that we faced at every turn.

You’re saying that someone wanting fictional characters(pixels) to die is a wee bit sociopathic. How so? Also i don’t think anyone is asking for walking dead style deaths or purely for shock value. But people want actual stakes in the story. The story gets beyond boring when there’s death flag after death flag and then numerous fakeout deaths. Because it also messed a bit with the story. Remember the whole plot line about Yshtola’s aether slowly sapping away due to using flow? Yeah that’s been completely ignored in favor of keeping her alive. Personally i feel very little for the scions, i feel like i’m nothing but a loaded gun for them, so i’d rather see some of them succumb to the horrors of this apocalypse and make it feel very serious and real than to have them somehow survive due to deus ex machina and plot armor. Also while it was stated we could bring them back if i’m not mistaken yshtola explicitly tells us not too, which makes sense considering it goes against the themes of the game to not deal with loss and instead bring back the dead.

[Ryaz]

You’re saying that someone wanting fictional characters(pixels) to die is a wee bit sociopathic. How so? Also i don’t think anyone is asking for walking dead style deaths or purely for shock value. But people want actual stakes in the story. The story gets beyond boring when there’s death flag after death flag and then numerous fakeout deaths. Because it also messed a bit with the story. Remember the whole plot line about Yshtola’s aether slowly sapping away due to using flow? Yeah that’s been completely ignored in favor of keeping her alive. Personally i feel very little for the scions, i feel like i’m nothing but a loaded gun for them, so i’d rather see some of them succumb to the horrors of this apocalypse and make it feel very serious and real than to have them somehow survive due to deus ex machina and plot armor. Also while it was stated we could bring them back if i’m not mistaken yshtola explicitly tells us not too, which makes sense considering it goes against the themes of the game to not deal with loss and instead bring back the dead.

Yes, they're pixels. I was exaggerating a bit when I said people are sociopathic, however, it does show an empathy difference. They actually did a study on it when it comes to horror films that people who really enjoy them tend to have less empathy than people who don't. It doesn't mean they're killers in real life, they just don't get invested in the characters as much. I'm not sure why you don't like the scions much, because a huge part of the last two expansions was showing just how much you meant as their friend (especially to Alisae and G'raha), but to each his own. I fall into the latte camp of being a pretty empathic person, so I get invested in the characters quite a bit. Do I believe they're real? Of course not. I'm not insane. But I still have an emotional investment in them, which is what any good story should do.

And yes, Y'shtola said to not bring them back-- because doing so would cause the pathways forward to collapse. It was their souls keeping the place going. Once you summon Emet and Hythlodeus and the field of Elpis flowers, you instill some hope back into Meteion herself, so the Scions souls are no longer needed to keep everything together. Emet actually says as much just before you summon them back. It wasn't a deus ex machina, because Venat clearly tells you what the crystal is capable of.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Yes, they're pixels. I was exaggerating a bit when I said people are sociopathic, however, it does show an empathy difference. They actually did a study on it when it comes to horror films that people who really enjoy them tend to have less empathy than people who don't. It doesn't mean they're killers in real life, they just don't get invested in the characters as much. I'm not sure why you don't like the scions much, because a huge part of the last two expansions was showing just how much you meant as their friend (especially to Alisae and G'raha), but to each his own. I fall into the latte camp of being a pretty empathic person, so I get invested in the characters quite a bit. Do I believe they're real? Of course not. I'm not insane. But I still have an emotional investment in them, which is what any good story should do.

And yes, Y'shtola said to not bring them back-- because doing so would cause the pathways forward to collapse. It was their souls keeping the place going. Once you summon Emet and Hythlodeus and the field of Elpis flowers, you instill some hope back into Meteion herself, so the Scions souls are no longer needed to keep everything together. Emet actually says as much just before you summon them back. It wasn't a deus ex machina, because Venat clearly tells you what the crystal is capable of.

It still goes against the themes of the story lol. Loss and fire and faith yet loss is never felt on the protag side, purely the antag side or minor npcs. As far as empathy goes, i’m a very empathetic person irl, so i don’t think we can jump to those conclusions based on films or video games. I feel far more for the antagonist side actually because they lose a loooot more than the protag side ever does because as i mentioned before, the story is very one sided. Horrible things happen to the antags but the protags are kept safe and sound or magically come back to life. It’s very boring and predictable.

[RyuDragnier]

It still goes against the themes of the story lol. Loss and fire and faith yet loss is never felt on the protag side, purely the antag side or minor npcs. As far as empathy goes, i’m a very empathetic person irl, so i don’t think we can jump to those conclusions based on films or video games. I feel far more for the antagonist side actually because they lose a loooot more than the protag side ever does because as i mentioned before, the story is very one sided. Horrible things happen to the antags but the protags are kept safe and sound or magically come back to life. It’s very boring and predictable.

Loss and fire and faith aren't felt by the main cast because they've already felt them. We lost Moenbryda, which hit Urianger. We lost Haurchefant, which hit us and Alphinaud. We lost Papalymo, which hit Y'shtola. We lost Tesleen, which meant nothing for us but meant a lot for Alisaie. We lost Minfilia, which hit Thancred. G'raha lost EVERYONE in the bad future. Everybody felt the fires of war and suffering over the course of their adventures together, and everybody gained faith in each other and the world through them as well. The main cast has already grown to where none of this is needed for them, they've already been forged through the events of the expansions.