Tank healing is to high

[AFuzzyMu11in]

Gear power creep is not a bad thing. It rewards you for playing better and getting stronger. It seems to me some of you don’t understand in RPGs you are supposed to reach a point where content gets easier the stronger better gear you get. You want the same fresh thrill/challenge even though it’s not possible in games like this. You will get your jollies when savage comes out and then when the 24 man comes out just be patient. For now extreme trials have been farmed and outscale it’s just the way of things.

[Shalan]

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

The problem with this is that we have been pushing for this already, prior to the current discussion surrounding tank healing. Healers have been asking and hoping for more serious damage to offset the loss of our DPS kits since the media tour for ShB when they showed us our butchered classes.

As a result of the discussions around the idea, two conclusions were met and widely agreed upon:

1.) Increased healing requirements would alienate the uber-casuals and prevent them from progressing, which Yoshi has outright stated they will not do.

2.) Undertaking such a change would likely be prohibitively costly to plan and implement for the devs at a time when they're trying to release an expansion. Ideally, they would be retooling fights across all the expansions of the game to reflect the new (as of ShB) healer toolkits and gradually ramp up the healing difficulty. That way you wouldn't just have 70 levels of gameplay and then just hit a brick wall to overcome when you hit ShB content.

Ideally, the last expansion would have been the best time for them to plan out such a thing, given their excuse in the last expansion for not giving us a healer was to better balance the role and fix gameplay issues (only to not do just that).


Ultimately, it's unlikely we'll ever get more threatening damage. Probably moreso due to #1 than 2.

That being said, we also don't want to make the content impossible for players with not as high a skill level to clear. Because if we make it too intense, the number of people who can clear the content will be very limited. We don't want to have a situation where somebody is just healing the whole time, like ALL the time, or like have to HAVE to manage MP constantly.

- Yoshi in interview with Mizzteq

[ApolloGenX]

Tank healing is fun and lets healers do other stuff.... plus, if tanks refuse to use CDs, then it doesn't matter, they can still get chewed up. I hate healing tanks that can't find CDs.....

[Risvertasashi]

Tank healing is fun and lets healers do other stuff.... plus, if tanks refuse to use CDs, then it doesn't matter, they can still get chewed up. I hate healing tanks that can't find CDs.....

So much fun pushing 11111111

[Semirhage]

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

I agree with the tenor of what you're saying, but I also think the issues with tank and healer design are deeper than the length of a post title would allow. If you just double or tripled encounter damage, you'd get A) Sylphies squealing that healing is IMPOSSIBLEEEEEEE (despite still being pretty easy), and B) the healing kits themselves aren't that interesting either. Cure Cure Cure Cure Cure Cure isn't that much more fun than Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare, at least not in my estimation.

As for the thread topic, healer obsolescence is a symptom of a lot of things, some of which are entirely separate from tank self-sustain. On the other side of that token, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with a role in a self-declared multiplayer, teamwork-based game that has nigh invincible levels of defense, can heal itself nearly as well as a dedicated healer, and can put out enough damage that it's not significantly more painful than using a dedicated damage dealer. What is this, Skyrim? Archmage of the mage's guild, heavy armor, soloing dragons, that's all good and well in a single player RPG but a one man "good at everything" army pokes some holes in the "multiplayer" descriptor.

FFXIV is *barely* a trinity game.

[Insertusernamehere]

My personal opinion, dungeon boss fight tied to healer. If healer doing it first time and dying to basic mechanics you have to start all over before EW as tank you are completely helpless.. just a dummy with no option but start all over again.

Now you can keep fighting, is it comfortable? Not with GNB.. I rather prefer doing decent rotation and save 25 sec cd for tank buster or saving party member.

Edit: If we are saying tank cant save the boss fight with self heal (and remove all self healing abilities) we should also apply healer/rdm/smn cant rez during boss fight option. Easy to notice if they are failing at healing or DPS failing at mechanics. Why punish one class but spare others right?

[Shurrikhan]

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

Those discussions aren't mutually exclusive, though.

First, on an adjacent discussion (since these two points would otherwise be less relevant to each other than not) if there is slightly too little damage for non-tanks, but far too little for tanks, then tank damage intake, specifically, is also too low, in addition to the encounter's output.

That may be a matter of the frequency of defensive options to counter that damage, such that tanks need no direct healing beyond ST oGCDs, Kardia/Embrace, and maybe a Regen/AB per minute, or it may be a matter of their passive eHP, but whatever the case, that would be a difference beyond that seen by other roles and one which many tanks and healers find detrimental to the overall experience.

For tank healing, though, there's also a tremendous difference between short-lived barriers like TBN, damage (and mitigation, since one cannot block mid-cast)-consuming trade-offs like Clemency, and the likes of Bloodwhetting doing a minimum of twice TBN's (in practice / shield-breakable) output while applicable before, during, or after damage, such that one could get good effect out of it (both fully consume the shield, get notable mitigation under their 8 seconds' duration, and top themselves off even w/o using guaranteed Crits) if simply left to one's own devices and playing while watching solely their TV between movement mechanics. The last among those is not only overly powerful but also overly applicable, greatly reducing the gap between blind and skillful play. And when the most defensively powerful tool or the job that holds it is the least dependent upon skillful use, that feels bad for the whole role, even before getting into matters of interactions between different roles.

Yes, encounter design is currently too forgiving, but if anyone's going to make the case that tanks should be able to clutch out a lack of healer, then the same case should also be made for a lack of tanks. And when tanks passively mitigate for so much more than non-tanks, and have tremendously more eHP, bringing encounter damage up to tank's overtuned state would quickly remove any ability to precede without a tank, all while only making it slightly harder to precede without a healer (since raid damage certainly can't increase to the extent that white damage or the like against tanks can).

The tank role includes those jobs and problematic designs that are the bottleneck right now and it would be better to first deal with (1) imbalances in skill/precision to reward in the tank role and (2) the sheer amount of passive defensive throughput available to tanks before tuning encounters as a whole.

[Dogempire]

There is a pretty stark difference between the tank downing the last 10% of a boss by doing the mechanics well, using their mitigation and invul smartly and saving a clear, and just soloing the boss from basically start to finish. If you can do it from 50% to 0, you could likely do it from 100 to 0, some specific mechanics aside

This makes me wish I could undersized party some of the dungeons just to see which bosses can be soloed but not actually possible right now

[Dogempire]

So much fun pushing 11111111

False, you have to hit 2 every 30 seconds or else you're not optimizing

[QooEr]

This makes me wish I could undersized party some of the dungeons just to see which bosses can be soloed but not actually possible right now

you can queue with friends and then have them leave or just not participate on the boss you want to solo