Endwalker's story had me, but lost me. Ethical issues especially (spoilers)

[MikkoAkure]

Doesn't the Sundering always happen regardless of whether we go back in time or not? I'm not completely convinced we changed much. I was under the impression that we may have changed a teeny bit of the background of events, but they would have happened anyway. The biggest evidence of this is that in the original, untampered timeline that G'raha came from, Hydaelyn still exists and everything still happened despite the WoL dying to Black Rose so they never time-traveled.

Even without WoL in Elpis, Emet-Selch and Hythlodeus meet with Hermes who gets upset about taking over Fandaniel's seat and needs time to think so they wander around and explore Elpis and bump into Venat until Meteion gets her report. The parts WoL influenced were spending time with Meteion so she wasn't lonely and wasn't constantly suffused with Hermes' bad dynamis, Hermes never finding out that other people are sad, the Crew never finding out about our past and their future, and an extra helper being present in order to corral Meteion.

I came out of Endwalker thinking that we just gave Venat a different reason or more clarity to do what she would have already done to begin with.

The biggest effect our time-travel shenanigans have is after we have already done it: familiarity with Hydaelyn when we meet her, and Meteion is marked and we know where she is, what she is, and why she needs to be stopped, which is why we went to Elpis in the first place.

[Cilia]

The time travel already happened; Argos expresses familiarity with us on our first trip to the moon, while in ancient Elpis he's standoffish until we prove our worth by holding our own sparring with Venat. The Watcher notes he's very shy unless you know him well. Further Venat (as a manifestation of Hydaelyn) mentions "[A] promise made in another time, another age" while you're traveling to Old Sharlayan by boat, which winds up being something she promised you during your time in Elpis.

That said, as mentioned by Elidibus before we time traveled there, nothing we did would have been able to effect meaningful changes in history because otherwise we wouldn't have been there to time travel back to ancient Elpis. Meteion's fall and flight, the Final Days, and the Sundering all still have to happen, and neither Emet-Selch nor Hythlodaeus can remember us, and reality would shape itself to ensure those are all just so - sort of like a reverse Butterfly effect. There may (probably) exist alternate timelines where things did not happen as we observe them, but those lie outside of our ability to observe since we (probably) don't exist in them.

Time travel is complicated, yo!

[Iscah]

Because (imo) one reason why she sundered Zodiark was because she knew about Dynamis and its effects and thus knew that the Ancients with their dense aether could not use it.

But that's about the choices made by the writers as much as the characters.

Because the writers decided she would keep her memories, her reason for causing the Sundering can be based on her memories.

If instead they wrote the story differently and she lost those memories, they would write a different version of events. They would have to invent a series of events that led to the Sundering (not necessarily the same exact events we saw play out) based on knowledge she could gain and choices she could make on her own.

As I wrote, I think there were definitely story options to come up with a different chain of events that incorporate everything we were previously told by Emet and Hythlodaeus.

[MikkoAkure]

The time travel already happened; Argos expresses familiarity with us on our first trip to the moon, while in ancient Elpis he's standoffish until we prove our worth by holding our own sparring with Venat. The Watcher notes he's very shy unless you know him well. Further Venat (as a manifestation of Hydaelyn) mentions "[A] promise made in another time, another age" while you're traveling to Old Sharlayan by boat, which winds up being something she promised you during your time in Elpis.

That said, as mentioned by Elidibus before we time traveled there, nothing we did would have been able to effect meaningful changes in history because otherwise we wouldn't have been there to time travel back to ancient Elpis. Meteion's fall and flight, the Final Days, and the Sundering all still have to happen, and neither Emet-Selch nor Hythlodaeus can remember us, and reality would shape itself to ensure those are all just so - sort of like a reverse Butterfly effect. There may (probably) exist alternate timelines where things did not happen as we observe them, but those lie outside of our ability to observe since we (probably) don't exist in them.

Time travel is complicated, yo!

I thought the time travel already happening thing affects our current timeline, but what about the other where it wasn't possible due to WoL being dead? Does our going back in time in this specific timeline affect all other timelines where it wasn't even possible?

My head hurts.

[Cleretic]

I thought the time travel already happening thing affects our current timeline, but what about the other where it wasn't possible due to WoL being dead? Does our going back in time in this specific timeline affect all other timelines where it wasn't even possible?

My head hurts.

We're dealing with a time loop within another time loop. Simplify it by realizing that the 'smaller' time loop is essentially predestined by way of being required by the 'larger' time loop, and so could never not have happened. Funnily enough, this means that the Alexander raids themselves are a microcosm of the other time travel elements in the story; G'raha Tia and the Crystal Tower are the equivalent of Quickthinx Allthoughts and Roundrox's journal, while we are the equivalent to Alexander itself.

Or just remember that time travel is an entirely fictional concept that therefore only has to follow the rules that the story itself sets down, and so is only as confusing as the story itself wants to be and overthinking it is pointless. If you need help in understanding that angle, I suggest 'having watched Doctor Who since you were a teenager and therefore realizing that even the biggest time travel fiction around is nonsense'.

[Iscah]

I thought the time travel already happening thing affects our current timeline, but what about the other where it wasn't possible due to WoL being dead? Does our going back in time in this specific timeline affect all other timelines where it wasn't even possible?

My head hurts.

As I understand it, because the timelines only split apart after the events at Elpis, there is no need for the other timeline's WoL to also travel back there – and if they did (which they don't because they never get to that point), they would arrive in the same exact Elpis that we are visiting.

Our actions in Elpis affect both halves of the split timeline, even though we travel there from from one side of the split.

[Iscah]

Funnily enough, this means that the Alexander raids themselves are a microcosm of the other time travel elements in the story; G'raha Tia and the Crystal Tower are the equivalent of Quickthinx Allthoughts and Roundrox's journal, while we are the equivalent to Alexander itself.

G'raha's time travelling isn't really the same thing as Quickthinx getting hold of Backrix's journal. It's similar in that an informational thing from the future has gotten into the past, but G'raha causes time to be changed/split while the information from the journal only cements the existing course of events into happening because Quickthinx takes it to be ordained prophecy and carries it out.

All the time travel elements in Alexander plus our trip to Elpis (and the likely outcome of our trip to Pandæmonium) are stable causal loops. G'raha's time travel is the only one known to cause a split.

[Rosenstrauch]

I thought the time travel already happening thing affects our current timeline, but what about the other where it wasn't possible due to WoL being dead? Does our going back in time in this specific timeline affect all other timelines where it wasn't even possible?

My head hurts.

Imagine it like a shoelace frayed on one end and held together by an aglet on the other. Though each strand branches off in its own direction, they gradually converge into a single thread the closer they are to the aglet.

Which is to say that our time in Elpis came to pass even though we weren't alive to go back there in the Eighth Era timeline, because we'd already done so in the New Dawn timeline, and the two share the same root of "every moment prior to the split". There is some degree of convolution to be had, of course: If you try to imagine them as wholly separate timelines, then they're codependent on each other. This is the kind of strangeness that happens when time travel keeps cropping up in a story.

If it makes you feel any better, the writers have probably had to sit down and figure all this out themselves, so any pain you might be feeling is something they've shared. Maybe.

[Rulakir]

I'm going to pose a different question: Should the player character have been so closely involved with Venat/Hydaelyn, especially in a positive way, if her actions were morally questionable?

I think that's the bigger issue here. While I abhorred everything that happened after the dungeon, the worst part was my character's involvement and lack of agency. Starting from being the one who gave Venat information about the future for her to arguably misuse, to not so much as a dialog option to dissuade her when she was giving excuses as to why she wasn't going to do anything differently, and culminating in emotional cutscenes.

Replace the sundering with a rejoining and tell me that wouldn't have led to outrage.

Venat acknowledges "There was no kindness nor justice in the tragedy I wrought." Yet the narrative forces the WoL into being complicit in that injustice and tragedy, which players are rightfully upset about it.

[MikkoAkure]

I'm going to pose a different question: Should the player character have been so closely involved with Venat/Hydaelyn, especially in a positive way, if her actions were morally questionable?

I think that's the bigger issue here. While I abhorred everything that happened after the dungeon, the worst part was my character's involvement and lack of agency. Starting from being the one who gave Venat information about the future for her to arguably misuse, to not so much as a dialog option to dissuade her when she was giving excuses as to why she wasn't going to do anything differently, and culminating in emotional cutscenes.

Replace the sundering with a rejoining and tell me that wouldn't have led to outrage.

Venat acknowledges "There was no kindness nor justice in the tragedy I wrought." Yet the narrative forces the WoL into being complicit in that injustice and tragedy, which players are rightfully upset about it.

I feel like WoL broke away from being a blank slate awhile ago and it's more evident in Shadowbringers when we have more of a central role than we've ever had before. It's no longer your WoL, but the writers' WoL designed by you with some few dialogue options that don't change anything anyway. The side effect of FFXIV veering away from "random person who happens to be friends with everyone and also happens to be there when big things happen" to "central protagonist" is that the WoL themselves develop their own personality and have their own agency and thoughts separate from your own.